GWTW Forum
September 26, 2016, 05:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Let's talk Kite Framing  (Read 3672 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
OCPablo
Trade Count: (+2)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


Location: South OC, CA

« on: August 15, 2016, 07:08 PM »

Dual line specifically.  As I am now back into the kiting scene, I am about to embark on tweaking some of the latest acquisitions and would really like some feedback from those of you who have been building your own custom kites (some of these are absolutely amazing in the fit and finish... very impressive.)

Back about 15 years ago, there were two thoughts.  Pultrude frames and wrapped carbon.  Pultrude had more flex, was typically more 'rugged' and was a big hit with Euro kites.  Then Skyshark came out and it was all about wrapped rods.  When the tapered wrapped rod came out, it got really interesting. 

As my flying style was influenced by the trick artists of Europe (Tim Benson, Chris Mathews, Andy Wardley et. al.) and the Bezerkly's from Berkeley who were Whackin' their kites in crazy winds.  Of course I was lucky enough to have 350 days of great weather and consistent 4-8 mph winds! Back then, if I wanted to 'upgrade' a kite, it was simple.  Re-frame it in a combo of 3P/5P or 5P/5PT and off you went!  Stiff frames allowed me to really be aggressive with the kite, dumping the sail out quickly and anywhere.  Great for ground tricks, and the 'tapers' gave me some wingtip flexibility which made ground tricks so much better.  Everything seemed simple.

In todays kite, I see an abundance of pultruded spars, with wrapped spreaders.  I am assuming that today's slack line tricks and rapid fire hand movements warrant more frame flexibility? 

As I have now started quite the assortment of new kites, I am very interested in seeing how some of my 'old skool' framing ideas will change the characteristics of these new deep sail shapes and higher wing aspects.  I do see more frame flex than I was use to back in the day, and I wonder why most kite makers went to pultruded vs wrapped.

Would live to hear some thoughts!!!!
Logged

SoCal Smoooth Winds... Arriving Daily.

SoCal Kite Quiver 2.0: https://goo.gl/photos/JsGxgqswN8GtbAox9
Allen Carter
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+37)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2150

Location: Half Moon Bay, CA

« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 09:35 PM »

What kites are you going to reframe? The only kite in the list above that has a pulltrude frame is the old Reflex.

 Almost all kites 7' and over have wrapped LEs and spreaders these days. You will find pulltrude on smaller kites. Even the little Acrobatx UL has a wrapped frame.  Wrapped spars have gotten stiffer and/or stronger over the years. The most common wrapped spar is probably the Skyshark P200, which is darn near impossible to break. Lighter and stiffer than the old 6mm/.2300 pulltrude, it's a bit more flexible than a tapered wrapped spar of similar weight like the 5pt. Lots of std kites use P200 LEs and 5PT spreaders.

If you are framing a full size kite, the Skyshark Nitros are a larger diameter tapered stick which are very stiff for their weight. Excellent in an 8' kite like a Mamba or Enigma.

Click the Skyshark link ------->

Lots of good info there

Flying Wings kites have their own brand of wrapped sticks, Dynamic T10, T15, etc.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:49 PM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
cerfvoliste
Trade Count: (+5)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 506


Location: Ashland Oregon

WWW
Re:
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 11:19 PM »

SkyShark xPT on most of my kites some Pxxx

No Matter Where You Go, There You Are.
Logged

Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1794


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 12:55 AM »

Like Allen asked, what kites do you want to reframe?  Most newer high end kites won't benefit from a reframe unless you are just trying to shave weight.   

I have been able to eliminate the need for added ballast with a reframe but over all performance doesn't really change.

Sail shape tends to change performance more than the frame
Logged
Allen Carter
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+37)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2150

Location: Half Moon Bay, CA

« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 08:54 AM »

It's pretty rare to find an enthusiast level kite that doesn't have a well thought out frame. Often the lower cost version of a kite (like a Premier Widow vs the Skyburner WidowMaker) will make framing choices based on intended audience. Like a stronger but maybe heavier or less stiff frame at a lower cost over the optimum but more expensive and/or fragile tapered sticks. In the old days this trade off was mainly cost related. Pulltrude was cheap but no where near the performance of wrapped. The Skyshark Pxxx series of straight wrapped tubes (and other similar products) are between the price of pulltrude and tapered wrapped but are light years ahead of pulltrude in performance and durability.

In the old days, kites like the HQ Midi came with a pulltrude frame to make a price point. A lot of these mid '90s kites come alive with a wrapped frame. My 3pt framed Midi is my favorite kite.
Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
OCPablo
Trade Count: (+2)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


Location: South OC, CA

« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 12:36 AM »

Great info here.

At the moment the only kite I want to completely re-frame is a 98 Midi I just found on eBay, the 3PT frame is interesting, I also have a bit of FW T10 rods I was thinking of using along with an old school SS 3P spine.  I will most likely duplicate the frame I put into my old Mini Sandpiper when I had it.

What I was more interested in was the fact that many kites from Europe are using 6mm spines, and a combo of wrapped LE/Spreaders.  Not sure why...

I have a L'Atilier Transfer XT.r UL that I want to up-frame from 3PT to 5PT/P200.  The frame is easily overpowered in anything over 5mph, and I would happily give up the 1-3 mph range for a larger wind window. One thing I do want to duplicate/play with is are the LE tip nocks which are attached to a small piece of internal ferrule.  Great way to make a clean tip, and I am going to see what happens when I add some weight to the tips as it pertains to flat spin rotational speed.  I have noticed that these new kites with their deep sails don't like to flat spin truly FLAT, the nose wants to lift up for obvious reasons.  If a ballast weight on the spine can help with flips, then weight at the tips might get more immediate rotation and hopefully get me flatter spins with a little more rotational speed.

Then again... I could be and most likely are completely wrong on this.

Logged

SoCal Smoooth Winds... Arriving Daily.

SoCal Kite Quiver 2.0: https://goo.gl/photos/JsGxgqswN8GtbAox9
skb
Trade Count: (+19)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 385


Location: Richmond BC, Canada

WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 01:14 AM »

I've got 6 or 7 Midis and all are re-framed with a variety of spars from Avia Skinny UL, G-Force UL to Sky Shark 2PT, 3PT & 5PT.

I loved the G-Force UL version, but I sure broke an armload on LLEs. The Sky Shark have proven to be much more durable, plus their internal ferrules are interchangeable, unlike the old Avia.


clickable thumbnail
Logged

Sent from my '11 laptop using Hunt 'n' Peck 2.13
SparkieRob
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 261

Location: Perth, Western Australia

« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2016, 01:43 AM »

Great info here.

At the moment the only kite I want to completely re-frame is a 98 Midi I just found on eBay, the 3PT frame is interesting, I also have a bit of FW T10 rods I was thinking of using along with an old school SS 3P spine.  I will most likely duplicate the frame I put into my old Mini Sandpiper when I had it.

What I was more interested in was the fact that many kites from Europe are using 6mm spines, and a combo of wrapped LE/Spreaders.  Not sure why...

I have a L'Atilier Transfer XT.r UL that I want to up-frame from 3PT to 5PT/P200.  The frame is easily overpowered in anything over 5mph, and I would happily give up the 1-3 mph range for a larger wind window. One thing I do want to duplicate/play with is are the LE tip nocks which are attached to a small piece of internal ferrule.  Great way to make a clean tip, and I am going to see what happens when I add some weight to the tips as it pertains to flat spin rotational speed.  I have noticed that these new kites with their deep sails don't like to flat spin truly FLAT, the nose wants to lift up for obvious reasons.  If a ballast weight on the spine can help with flips, then weight at the tips might get more immediate rotation and hopefully get me flatter spins with a little more rotational speed.

Then again... I could be and most likely are completely wrong on this.

I had an idea to put a small amount of weight into the wing tips by using some brass rod glued into a nock end and use that to tension the sail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged

Inbetween Heaven and Earth, there are kites.
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1794


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 01:04 AM »

Great info here.

At the moment the only kite I want to completely re-frame is a 98 Midi I just found on eBay, the 3PT frame is interesting, I also have a bit of FW T10 rods I was thinking of using along with an old school SS 3P spine.  I will most likely duplicate the frame I put into my old Mini Sandpiper when I had it.

What I was more interested in was the fact that many kites from Europe are using 6mm spines, and a combo of wrapped LE/Spreaders.  Not sure why...

I have a L'Atilier Transfer XT.r UL that I want to up-frame from 3PT to 5PT/P200.  The frame is easily overpowered in anything over 5mph, and I would happily give up the 1-3 mph range for a larger wind window. One thing I do want to duplicate/play with is are the LE tip nocks which are attached to a small piece of internal ferrule.  Great way to make a clean tip, and I am going to see what happens when I add some weight to the tips as it pertains to flat spin rotational speed.  I have noticed that these new kites with their deep sails don't like to flat spin truly FLAT, the nose wants to lift up for obvious reasons.  If a ballast weight on the spine can help with flips, then weight at the tips might get more immediate rotation and hopefully get me flatter spins with a little more rotational speed.

Then again... I could be and most likely are completely wrong on this.

Not sure where to start on this. I think you will be disappointed with weight in the tips. You will get more rotational speed but you will also get massive oversteer and  make the kite tail heavy. It's really no different than the weight at the tail end of the spine.

If you want to change the nose angle of the kite in the face down position you have to work in the keel section, not the wings.
Logged
honchoboy
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 27


Location: Yorkshire, UK

WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 06:23 AM »

I completely agree with Ca Ike's above comment. Its not as simple as adding wingtip weight. It will mess with the balance 'as designed', and affect the pitchiness, which is not what you are looking for.

By all means play (very small weights at the end of the lower spreaders may give you something) but modern kites rarely spin flat, and are a trade-off for pitch ability. You could try removing any tailweight as a test, but my guess is whatever you gain you will lose somewhere else.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 06:34 AM by honchoboy » Logged

Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1794


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 09:03 AM »

From my experimenting,  you don't lose pitch ability if you go for turntable flat rotational spins. What you lose is the deep turtle.
Logged
OCPablo
Trade Count: (+2)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


Location: South OC, CA

« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 01:34 PM »

Some great points...

While there might be some concern adding a specific small weight to the tips, I know I can get the same effect by upgrading the lower L/E rods with something slightly stronger.  I used to do this all the time, in fact my absolute fav kite was my Mini Sandpiper that had old Skyshark 2P in the upper L/E and 5PT in the lower and a 5P spine.  That one change turned it into a flat spin monster, most likely do to the increase overall mass.

As I thought about this more, I think the biggest challenge with current stable of trick kites is their deep sail and the design to get the nose pointing up/down when the kite is laid on it's back/face.  I think the real value of the spine weight is in creating momentum during roll-up type moves and as that is not where my focus is, the first move is to remove them and see what happens.  Curved L/E's also help to produce flat spins, and I have modified some kites in the past by simply using a slightly taut foul line from tip to tip.

Another idea I had was to grab some lead tape and play with adding small amounts of weight along the spine, above the "T" to see if I can get the spine angle more level vs nose up during flat spins.

I need to ask a dumb question... but what is "Deep Turtle"?

Again... thanks for all the great feedback!
Logged

SoCal Smoooth Winds... Arriving Daily.

SoCal Kite Quiver 2.0: https://goo.gl/photos/JsGxgqswN8GtbAox9
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1794


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2016, 01:34 AM »

Deep turtle is basically nose low when the kite is on its back. It locks in better while rotating, allowing for more lazy Susan based tricks.

I can tell you sail depth and the curve of the LE have little or nothing to do with how flat a kite lays during a spin. It's all in how the keel is angled and a bit in how the tunnel is set.
Logged
OCPablo
Trade Count: (+2)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 79


Location: South OC, CA

« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2016, 09:34 PM »

Deep turtle is basically nose low when the kite is on its back. It locks in better while rotating, allowing for more lazy Susan based tricks.

I can tell you sail depth and the curve of the LE have little or nothing to do with how flat a kite lays during a spin. It's all in how the keel is angled and a bit in how the tunnel is set.

I would politely disagree, a kite with a shallow sail and a slightly curved L/W will flat spin much better when compared to kites with much deeper sails.
Logged

SoCal Smoooth Winds... Arriving Daily.

SoCal Kite Quiver 2.0: https://goo.gl/photos/JsGxgqswN8GtbAox9
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Support the GWTW Forum

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

FMKS
Fly Market

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear above and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at top)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Cal Custom

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!