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tpatter
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 04:52 PM »

To me, the SUL version of kites I've flown always seem extra stable in a fade in decent wind.  Also the flatter the sail, its crazy stable to the point that you have a tough time rocking it out.

I think its a fair challenge.  We've already shared some knowledge of what we think would help in this challenge, so we're already learning! 

In bumpy wind, a minute is a long time, but its do-able.  For sure, if you can do it in in-land bumpy wind, you will likely know more about what it takes to hold and control a fade than someone who can do it in lab-grade wind.
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6 kite tom
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 06:39 PM »

Some of the better kites fade great with the stock tail weight in place, but many fade better with no tail weight. Many kites do lots of things better with no tail weight, other than roll up.

Shoot, I was hoping it would be a general rule. Common sense tells me a weight would keep the tail lower, and the nose higher, making the fade more stable. I could easily be underestimating what the weight increase does, however, and I could accept that a weight always makes a fade harder for that reason.

But this "it depends" answer is frustrating.

How about this question. Should I use the weight for either of the two kites I'll be trying this trick with: Nirvana (first edition), and Silver Fox Pro UL? (Or are you guys not experienced enough with these kites to give a good answer?)
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hawkerhunter
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 11:19 PM »

Time to break out the Elixir me thinks. Nice challenge Norm.
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Wayner
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 11:51 AM »

Norm, thanks for the challange.

Think I completed the challange with my old school ProWren (per Norms review and judgement) but the kite made it easy, so its not enought to earn a pair of finger straps.  Sad

1st video is just the completed challange.
Yes that is me talking to some kids at 1:25 (I walked onto their practice area while backing up). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciAFT7hntNc

2nd video is like watching paint dry but shows the difference between ProWren and WM UL. ProWren flight is non edited showing only 3 attempts needed. WM flight starts at 3:52. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GWUMBonXa8


Couple of points.
  • Flew the WM UL with tail weight, then without tail weight and upper spreader when the wind dropped. Didn't notice any changes.
  • Getting the kite 3 feet of the ground is a big challange for inland wind. You can see how much the ProWren starts rocking each of the 3 times I got near the ground.
  • Higher level of difficulty. While both kites started rocking I did not have the skills to stop it with the WM. I was most disappointed when I nailed the entry to the fade and it locked in, only to have it fall out without warning during a wind shift.
  • A modern trick kite and inland winds greatly increase the level of difficulty.

Wayne
 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 12:30 PM by Wayner » Logged
Wayner
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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 03:32 PM »

Very cool Wayne!  It was fun to see that your WM UL is the same sail as my WM Std. I didn't think anyone else had those original colors. It's still my favorite.

I get a lot of comments on the color too. People come up to me saying "I knew that was you when I saw that kite again"  Grin
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Mayfirst
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« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2013, 07:28 PM »

Whoever said beaches are the best for flying kites due to their stable winds.. I live right next to the damn ocean and I've been waiting for 3 days for a decent enough breeze so I could try this! The wind is literally 0 m/s, hour after another, even on an island 7 km away from the continent surrounded by nothing but a frozen sea. *keeps updating the weather info* Supposedly it takes the rest of the week before we get any proper breezes again. (And no, I don't own any zero to extremely light wind designs.) Cry
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Mayfirst
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2013, 08:16 PM »

I guess it depends on where you are. Also, even living next to the beach, there are weeks straight that are un-flyable. Or you just had the bad luck to go out kiting the one day in the week that the wind wasn't there. Kiting definitely teaches patience.

I can't tell you how many times I've set up, and tried to fly and just couldn't keep the kite going. Packed up in frustration, and just as I'm winding up the lines, here comes some wind. DO NOT give in to the temptation to set back up... the wind will disappear as soon as you're ready to fly again...  Cheesy

This is the average wind chart for my town. Look yours up, I'm sure you'll be surprised.





Here's ours for the past week, of course I missed the only window I had Thursday afternoon, other than that, nature has something against me.

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Allen Carter
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2013, 08:22 PM »

The curve around here is opposite. Steady wind spring & summer and in winter total dead zones, unless it's storming. And generally if it's storm wind it's really funky and coming from the wrong direction.

Until I learned how to fly in 0 wind, winter was bleak...
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Allen, AKA kitehead
Allen Carter
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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2013, 08:30 PM »

The beach wind thing is no miracle, just nature. When wind moves across a large expanse of flat, even temperature water or land it smooths out. Becomes more linear.

These days most land near inhabited areas, even if flat, has uneven temperatures. Inland wind has obstacles and uneven temperatures to deal with. You could be out in a nice big field with no hills or buildings in the way but the super highway up wind is putting off enough heat to make what might have been a nice 4mph breeze into an exercise in frustration.

Another factor is that large bodies of water (especially oceans) don't change temperature from day to night the way a lot of urban land masses do.

I fly in a major metropolitan area, but we have the advantage of a bay which tames winds nicely. When the wind shifts and comes in from the SE over San Jose it generally sucks. Luckily it's from the NNW most days and pretty damn good.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 08:33 PM by Allen Carter » Logged

Allen, AKA kitehead
Mayfirst
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2013, 08:34 PM »

The curve around here is opposite. Steady wind spring & summer and in winter total dead zones, unless it's storming. And generally if it's storm wind it's really funky and coming from the wrong direction.

Until I learned how to fly in 0 wind, winter was bleak...

Yeah my next buy will be a SUL. Grin It's funny how I never thought about the winds that much until I started getting interested in kites.. I usually had nothing to complain as long as it wasn't flying trees around, and now I find something wrong with every kind of wind.
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Mayfirst
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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2013, 09:23 PM »

Sunday is my flying day. Your wind looks perfect last Sunday. If anything, most of those days I would be flying a vented kite. Looking at your chart, there are certain times of the day that have good wind, almost every day. I'm sure you'll find the good wind soon !

Yeah but that doesn't tell it all, only two days ago it stopped snowing and it's been a steady -15 to -20 Celsius so when those two are included, I've had a preferable weather only since Wednesday, but since then the wind has been, well, avoiding me. I don't mind the butt-freezing conditions, I actually enjoy the cold, as long as it doesn't snow and we get at least a light breeze when I wanna go kiting. The only time I couldn't go was when we had a nice breeze according to the chart. Sad That's why I've had so much time to bug the hell outta yall, just waiting for the wind. Grin
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lilabner
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2013, 07:34 AM »

I can hold my fade for 60 sec. on a consistent basis. But I'm not going to go much longer than 60 - 90 sec.  Cry  Sad  Wink
As my wingtips/leading eadges ocilate up & down, I usually just roll out when the ocilating gets too extreme. IS THERE A WAY to control this ocilation???

Thanks Much
Ab
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Wayner
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2013, 10:03 AM »

Whoever said beaches are the best for flying kites due to their stable winds.. I live right next to the damn ocean and I've been waiting for 3 days for a decent enough breeze so I could try this! The wind is literally 0 m/s, hour after another, even on an island 7 km away from the continent surrounded by nothing but a frozen sea. *keeps updating the weather info* Supposedly it takes the rest of the week before we get any proper breezes again. (And no, I don't own any zero to extremely light wind designs.) Cry

Beaches are great for wind quality.
 
Your talking about wind speed (or lack of it). It is even worse inland. That why I have 6 SUL's: Wren, ProWren, Amazing, ProDancer, AB+, & Airwave Zero   
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Wayner
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2013, 10:16 AM »

I found myself trying to manage your lines from my computer chair. I can't believe how many times it appeared the kite would be going out of fade and some how you managed to hold it. Good job and tpatter was correct.......again.....It is do-able with in-land wind. I didn't put a stop watch on the lowered portion, but it's close enough for this ol' guy. 
Let me know which straps you NEED.  Cheesy  Wink




Norm I like your thin webbing the best.  Grin


Describe your wind conditions for the other competitors..........please.  Grin 



Winds were between 2mph and about 9mph changing every couple of minutes.
Really like my Infinity for the fade, but the wind keep dropping to low to use it.

Didn't include it in the video but started with the WM UL. First two attemps the kite just floated down from lack of wind so I switched to a SUL. When I went back to the WM, pulled out the weight and upper spreader to match the low wind conditions. The sail distorted during the higher winds in normal flight but, not a problem when the kite was in the fade.
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Mayfirst
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« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2013, 11:16 AM »

Just wanted to throw a question related to the topic (all the topics seem to get hijacked, hopefully I'm not to blame), so which kite in Your opinion is the best "fader"? *stirs the beehive* Grin Or is there even such a kite. Or are all decent kites just as good at it as long as the other end of the lines is in experienced hands? I understand it depends on the weather and so on and so forth, but if we skip the whole STD/UL and weather point of it, basically it comes down to this: which kite did you choose for this challenge? Smiley

Might be a stupid question, so pardon my "newbieness". I'm just eager to learn.
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