FADE "Trick Challenge"

[Welcome to the GWTW Forum]

Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns?  forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

[Ara Ararauna]

Wow Norm.
That's really impressive.
Hope I can get to do it too.
At the beginning I was also thinking: what is this man doing with the lines? Is it some kind of trick to keep the fade there?
Thanks for explaining you did it just for demoing the stability. Otherwise people could have seen me going crazy wild with the lines while trying to fade 

Hope to try it nex weekend (with the weather's permission)

[NormP]

(Or is it just walking forward and backward?

I am flying a SUL in the video. All I had to do was SLOWLY walk forward to lower the kite. Slowly walk backwards to raise the kite up.
Note: Your particular kite and wind speed will determine the "natural height" of your fade.
This can be done just as easy with a Standard kite (weights included) and the proper wind speed.
 

[Allen Carter]

This can be done just as easy with a Standard kite (weights included) and the proper wind speed.
 

Does this mean that all kites are equally stable in a fade?

That has definitely not been my experience.

A standard weight version of the same kite often has very similar fade characteristics to a lighter version, but you can't compare a standard weight modern trick kite to a purpose built old school SUL like the one in the example video.

Some of the better kites fade great with the stock tail weight in place, but many fade better with no tail weight. Many kites do lots of things better with no tail weight, other than roll up.

In my experience stability in a fade is dependent on two main factors. Kite design and wind quality. A kite like the Breeze in steady wind isn't as much of a test of flyer skill as a heavy, flippy kite in funky wind would be. If this is to be a skills contest then the playing field may be so uneven as to make the result meaningless.

I think these challenges are great, and I don't want to rain on any parade, I just want to make sure newer fliers and folks in less fortunate locations know what they are trying to do in comparison to the example video.

[tpatter]

To me, the SUL version of kites I've flown always seem extra stable in a fade in decent wind.  Also the flatter the sail, its crazy stable to the point that you have a tough time rocking it out.

I think its a fair challenge.  We've already shared some knowledge of what we think would help in this challenge, so we're already learning! 

In bumpy wind, a minute is a long time, but its do-able.  For sure, if you can do it in in-land bumpy wind, you will likely know more about what it takes to hold and control a fade than someone who can do it in lab-grade wind.

[NormP]

I think its a fair challenge.  We've already shared some knowledge of what we think would help in this challenge, so we're already learning! 

Yep.....Thanks Tom.

The next "trick challenge" will be for beginners only , but all input and videos are encouraged, welcomed, and much appreciated.

[red sweater]

Some of the better kites fade great with the stock tail weight in place, but many fade better with no tail weight. Many kites do lots of things better with no tail weight, other than roll up.

Shoot, I was hoping it would be a general rule. Common sense tells me a weight would keep the tail lower, and the nose higher, making the fade more stable. I could easily be underestimating what the weight increase does, however, and I could accept that a weight always makes a fade harder for that reason.

But this "it depends" answer is frustrating.

How about this question. Should I use the weight for either of the two kites I'll be trying this trick with: Nirvana (first edition), and Silver Fox Pro UL? (Or are you guys not experienced enough with these kites to give a good answer?)

[hawkerhunter]

Time to break out the Elixir me thinks. Nice challenge Norm.

[Wayner]

Norm, thanks for the challange.

Think I completed the challange with my old school ProWren (per Norms review and judgement) but the kite made it easy, so its not enought to earn a pair of finger straps. 

1st video is just the completed challange.
Yes that is me talking to some kids at 1:25 (I walked onto their practice area while backing up). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciAFT7hntNc

2nd video is like watching paint dry but shows the difference between ProWren and WM UL. ProWren flight is non edited showing only 3 attempts needed. WM flight starts at 3:52. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GWUMBonXa8


Couple of points.

• Flew the WM UL with tail weight, then without tail weight and upper spreader when the wind dropped. Didn't notice any changes.
• Getting the kite 3 feet of the ground is a big challange for inland wind. You can see how much the ProWren starts rocking each of the 3 times I got near the ground.
• Higher level of difficulty. While both kites started rocking I did not have the skills to stop it with the WM. I was most disappointed when I nailed the entry to the fade and it locked in, only to have it fall out without warning during a wind shift.
  
• A modern trick kite and inland winds greatly increase the level of difficulty.
  

Wayne
 

[Wayner]

Very cool Wayne!  It was fun to see that your WM UL is the same sail as my WM Std. I didn't think anyone else had those original colors. It's still my favorite.

I get a lot of comments on the color too. People come up to me saying "I knew that was you when I saw that kite again" 

[NormP]

I found myself trying to manage your lines from my computer chair. I can't believe how many times it appeared the kite would be going out of fade and some how you managed to hold it. Good job and tpatter was correct.......again.....It is do-able with in-land wind. I didn't put a stop watch on the lowered portion, but it's close enough for this ol' guy. Describe your wind conditions for the other competitors..........please.   
 
Let me know which straps you NEED.   

[Mayfirst]

Whoever said beaches are the best for flying kites due to their stable winds.. I live right next to the damn ocean and I've been waiting for 3 days for a decent enough breeze so I could try this! The wind is literally 0 m/s, hour after another, even on an island 7 km away from the continent surrounded by nothing but a frozen sea. *keeps updating the weather info* Supposedly it takes the rest of the week before we get any proper breezes again. (And no, I don't own any zero to extremely light wind designs.)

[Mayfirst]

I guess it depends on where you are. Also, even living next to the beach, there are weeks straight that are un-flyable. Or you just had the bad luck to go out kiting the one day in the week that the wind wasn't there. Kiting definitely teaches patience.

I can't tell you how many times I've set up, and tried to fly and just couldn't keep the kite going. Packed up in frustration, and just as I'm winding up the lines, here comes some wind. DO NOT give in to the temptation to set back up... the wind will disappear as soon as you're ready to fly again... 

This is the average wind chart for my town. Look yours up, I'm sure you'll be surprised.

Here's ours for the past week, of course I missed the only window I had Thursday afternoon, other than that, nature has something against me.

[Allen Carter]

The curve around here is opposite. Steady wind spring & summer and in winter total dead zones, unless it's storming. And generally if it's storm wind it's really funky and coming from the wrong direction.

Until I learned how to fly in 0 wind, winter was bleak...

[Allen Carter]

The beach wind thing is no miracle, just nature. When wind moves across a large expanse of flat, even temperature water or land it smooths out. Becomes more linear.

These days most land near inhabited areas, even if flat, has uneven temperatures. Inland wind has obstacles and uneven temperatures to deal with. You could be out in a nice big field with no hills or buildings in the way but the super highway up wind is putting off enough heat to make what might have been a nice 4mph breeze into an exercise in frustration.

Another factor is that large bodies of water (especially oceans) don't change temperature from day to night the way a lot of urban land masses do.

I fly in a major metropolitan area, but we have the advantage of a bay which tames winds nicely. When the wind shifts and comes in from the SE over San Jose it generally sucks. Luckily it's from the NNW most days and pretty damn good.

[Mayfirst]

The curve around here is opposite. Steady wind spring & summer and in winter total dead zones, unless it's storming. And generally if it's storm wind it's really funky and coming from the wrong direction.

Until I learned how to fly in 0 wind, winter was bleak...

Yeah my next buy will be a SUL. It's funny how I never thought about the winds that much until I started getting interested in kites.. I usually had nothing to complain as long as it wasn't flying trees around, and now I find something wrong with every kind of wind.

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear in the right margin of the forum and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom of the page)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them. >>>
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.