GWTW Forum
August 21, 2014, 03:26 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 ... 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Prism has a newsletter?!?  (Read 6832 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2013, 06:07 PM »

I'm not knocking Prism just being realistic, they moved away from cutting edge designs years ago, they've gone for the mass sale cheapish beach stunter brigade, good for them, that's where the money is I guess, Mark's probably watching from his multi-million dollar home and rubbing his hands together.

THere has been nothing cutting edge in the last 10+years, just tweaked cookie cutter designs to showcase the trick of the month.  An yes the money is in the cheapish beach stunter brigade because without those there would be VERY few new fliers getting into the hobby and that has been proven time and time again in the last 30+ years of stunt kiting.  Without those there would be no incentive to build the higher end kites.

Anyone that thinks they're still relevant needs their head examined, even the best flyers in the US flew their own designs or Euro designed and built kites. Although there was one great video of Dave Smith flying the Zephyr.

And really John, the Q Pro was 2 years behind the curve when it originally came out 10 years ago!
Hmm no longer relevant?  Some of the best US and UK kite teams still fly the q-pro which is still the benchmark team kite.  Take a harder look and you will find plenty of videos of stock zephyrs doing all the current stuff.  Just watch Gerardo Fisanotti fly his.

John, I've not suggested that Prism's designs were not good.

But they are dated, and by the looks of things Prism have no intention of updating the range, so please don't give the 'they don't need to' line. You might be happy driving a 10 year old car, that doesn't mean others want to.

  Dated yes, but by release date and not capability.  Problems with manufacturing has more to do with the dropping of what I like to call the Seattle prisms than anything else now.  TIme will tell if people start being willing to do what todays generation calls "meaningless jobs" so even the current line up from all mass kite makers can meet demand.


John, I've not suggested that Prism's designs were not good.

But they are dated, and by the looks of things Prism have no intention of updating the range, so please don't give the 'they don't need to' line. You might be happy driving a 10 year old car, that doesn't mean others want to.


+1 .... I'm not knocking them but telling it straight. I like the zeph but it is much better kite with some tuning. The unadjustable stitched bridle which is set far too heavy doesn't help either.

I still fly a nirvana and I know it's not the latest design but I do appreciate what they were trying to achieve by it's design. I don't want a kite that necessarily gives away tricks I just want something inventive, uniquely fun and perhaps different to fly.

All of the prism kites that fit this criteria mentioned above are old. Some of their more modern high end kites are a pastiche of the french kites either in sail pattern or flying style. However, that said I still would like a quantum pro !  Cool


The bold comment is just wrong.  The bridle is fine and just as adjustable as any bridle needs to be.  It just doesn't have pigtails at all the frame points like a lot of kites do. it has the older style move the tow point adjustments.  Also the only thing the french brought to stunt kite design is the dual standoff and yoyo stops.  Straight leading edges, tail ballast, long center T's, eliptical trailing edge cuts, high aspect ratios, tight noses, leech/trick lines have all been around for longer than the french have made stunt kites. Heck I think JW was using zip ties and standoff connector yoyo stops on the Elixir even before the nirvana came out.  I know he was doing all that new french flippy stuff on his lix prior to the nirvana coming to the us(before it was designed maybe).
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 06:12 PM by Ca Ike » Logged
indigo_wolf
Trade Count: (+10)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1178


Location: North of Washington, DC (USA)

« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2013, 08:40 PM »

I think that Prism was cutting edge for so long in the 90's and early 00's that people expect them to keep going, leading the industry. Even if it's mid-grade stuff like the E3... that design is 4+ years old now, too. Coming up with new product is easy, just double the size of the 4D, and there's a home run. Double the size of the new-ish SLK's, I'd buy one of each. Make a visual change to the Zephyr or QPro, maybe some tweaks (or not), it would still increase sales.
Look at the rate of change & innovation 10-15 years ago... it seems pretty stagnant now.  Embarrassed


Errrr....ummm... I think this falls dangerously close to WIBNI(Wouldn't It Be Neat If)-thinking, but I am not sure how practical it is in terms of dollars and cents (which kind of has to drive any company that wants to stay in business).

  • just double the size of the 4D-  So do they keep the 4D or does the 4D II replace it?  If they keep both, there are going to be cases where the sales of one dilutes the sales of the other.  The flyer that actually buys and keeps both in the stable is going to be the exception rather than the rule.  If the discontinue the 4D and only sell the 4D II, it's going to be at a higher price point, which might be beyond the point of pain for more flyers.  Also remember the size of the 4D is what it is partially to make it easier to travel with and also so that it would be easier to keep on hand for flights of opportunity.
  • Double the size of the new-ish SLK's, I'd buy one of each - Well, that's 4 or 5 sales, but I am not sure that would be enough to even cover the cost of the new jigs needed.   Doubling the size of the SLKs would start putting them in the range of the Focus Skate... and higher up on the sticker shock scale for the average person.  The current SLKs enjoy a fairly good distribution through places like REI because their at a price where someone going camping or to the beach might gulp at the price, but they won't actually start choking and falling down in the aisles. ("Clean up on aisle 6").
  • Make a visual change to the Zephyr or QPro, maybe some tweaks (or not), it would still increase sales - I expect the sales of the E3 suffered some because of the market saturation of the E2.  If you had never owned an E2 or your's was worn to tatters, than you might have been among the target demographic.  However, if you had an E2 in good repair or even multiple E2's, the chances of you throwing fresh new bills into the ring go down considerably.  Remember how iffy it got at the very end of the reservations for the Pink QPros to see if they had enough people to actually make the production run viable?

I can see a new dual-line for Prism being something that may or may not happen, but graphics changes alone are probably only going to happen lower down the product line as they did with the Quantums.  Is less (but still) painful to have a Quantum sitting on the shelf unsold, than something that's higher up on the product line.

Minor tweaks are kind of hard to quantify for a sales brochure.

I have some of the classic Prisms, a couple of the SLKs, one Q-Pro, all of the dual lines after the retiring of the Elite line with the exception of the Zephyr, and enough Aliens to be an honorary employee at Area 51.

New kites would be nice, but I can't begin to imagine how many factors have to be weighed before green-lighting a new kite.

The segment of kiting that seems to see the most regular introduction of new kites of new iterations of existing kites are Revs to some degree and to a larger degree power kites.

Think for the most part we have to fall back on the old Doris Day anthem.

Doris Day - Que Sera Sera


Oh well, the Prism Leon II should be just around the corner or at least just over the horizon.

ATB,
Sam
Logged
JimB
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+6)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1129


Location: NYC

« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2013, 10:17 PM »

The QP Pro was designed specifically for Team Cutting Edge to take to the Worlds and win, which they did. Twice.

Something a Prism kite had never done.

And so, while it fits the old model of Prism production, ie; in house production, relatively small runs; it was really a one off, conceived with a lot of input from the team and, as I recall, somewhat modified by them for their very specific needs in real time.

Any resemblance to a kite built for the kiting community is incidental.

The big thing was to go to the worlds and win.

Everything beyond that was gravy.

It's kind of a stand alone IMO.
Logged
indigo_wolf
Trade Count: (+10)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1178


Location: North of Washington, DC (USA)

« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2013, 10:58 PM »

Everything beyond that was gravy.

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.  Wink

ATB,
Sam
Logged
harveystubbs
Trade Count: (+10)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 358


Location:

« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2013, 02:35 AM »

@ Ca ike - The bridle on my older prism is stitched and completely unadjustable without winding round the spreader connectors. It also weighs as much as a std kite. Other than that I actually like it hence the search for a Quantum pro.

On the other point I am not talking about the when modern elements of the kite had been invented and who invented them. I am merely saying that prism have mimicked the style of kite the French are known for.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 06:38 AM by harveystubbs » Logged
Craig
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63

Location:

« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2013, 06:00 AM »

Life's too short to reply to each point.

If you really believe that Prism are current, relevant and cutting edge to advanced/high end kiters, knock yourselves out.
Logged
Ace
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 127


Location: Melbourne Australia

« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2013, 04:20 PM »

Don't get me wrong. I have several prism kites and started off with them......but

with threads like this still plaguing this forum,

Is it any wonder that most decent flyers have moved on to other forums....

Nostalgia is one thing but repeated references to 15 year old videos/kites as a means to support a futile argument is getting old. Derogatory comments such "french flippy floppy stuff" really just demonstrates a persons complete lack of ability to perform that "flippy stuff". So if they can't do..they teach (or try too) Or worse yet they try to re-name existing tricks with Americanism's (WTF) Anyone for freedom fries....

There are really good kites out there these days, people here should just go out and fly them. Maybe then they'll see what all the fuss is about.
Logged

In the bag... Quantum Fire, E2 Ice, Micron Red, Deepspace STD and UL Blue, Nirvana Orange, KFX Red, Mohawk XS yellow.
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2013, 07:19 PM »

@ Ca ike - The bridle on my older prism is stitched and completely unadjustable without winding round the spreader connectors. It also weighs as much as a std kite. Other than that I actually like it hence the search for a Quantum pro.

On the other point I am not talking about the when modern elements of the kite had been invented and who invented them. I am merely saying that prism have mimicked the style of kite the French are known for.
Yea if your used to pigtails at the upper spreader its not the easiest bridle to figure out how to adjust.  IT has the older style , break the prussic and slide the tow point adjustment.  ON a couple I had to move the limit knots up because they were tied wrong at the factory and didn't allow enough nose forward adjustment for low wind.  I'm still not to keen on the pig tail thing mainly because its so touchy.  YOu don't just change the angle of attack with that set up but you change the entire bridle geometry making the kite fly different if your so much as 1/16 inch off on a leg length.  Working on the solus like I did really showed me how touchy that type of adjustment can be but it can be really good if set right too.

On your second point we can debate that forever and never agree.  ITs the individual features of a design that are constantly used and reused depending on what the designer wants out of that kite.  I first saw multiple standoffs appear on prisms and skyburners long before the nirvana and other french kites ever showed up but the nirvana brought a new concept on how to use dual standoffs.  Now with kites like the TNT zero and a few other newer designs were back to single standoffs started back in the late 70s early 80s.  Every designer borrows from every other designer and thats how its been for a long time.  Dual line design I think has reached its peak in innovation and is down to refinement depending on the performance goals.
Logged
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2013, 07:35 PM »

Don't get me wrong. I have several prism kites and started off with them......but

with threads like this still plaguing this forum,

Is it any wonder that most decent flyers have moved on to other forums....

Nostalgia is one thing but repeated references to 15 year old videos/kites as a means to support a futile argument is getting old. Derogatory comments such "french flippy floppy stuff" really just demonstrates a persons complete lack of ability to perform that "flippy stuff". So if they can't do..they teach (or try too) Or worse yet they try to re-name existing tricks with Americanism's (WTF) Anyone for freedom fries....

There are really good kites out there these days, people here should just go out and fly them. Maybe then they'll see what all the fuss is about.
So flippy floppy stuff is a derogatory term and by saying it I show I don't know how to do it?  Wow quite the assumption there.  I agree with you on the americanism thing though.  THat whole "AVFFF" deal annoys the heck out of me.  All I was saying is a lot of the tricks were going around here before or about the same time they were supposedly invented by the french and arguing over who invented them is kind of pointless because no one really knows for sure.  I've watched Mark Reed and John Weldon doing yoyo's on elixirs and eclipses a couple years before the "nirvana revolution" but where they learned it I don't know.

I have flown a lot of those good kites out there and its all relative.  What I can do on my solus, or any of the other high end kites out there I can do on my prisms as well. Some kites just do some things better than others. 
Logged
John Welden
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2013, 08:15 AM »

Life's too short to reply to each point.

If you really believe that Prism are current, relevant and cutting edge to advanced/high end kiters, knock yourselves out.

I was just wondering what makes the QP outdated? What won't it do or whatever? You must be a really advanced flyer to have a strong opinion on this. 

What about the Nirvana, is it out dated?

Have you made any videos showing what cutting edge flying looks like? I'd like to see.
Logged
Ca Ike
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1705


Location: Stockton, CA

« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2013, 09:43 AM »

THat whole "AVFFF" deal annoys the heck out of me.   
Too bad, you were given the opportunity to name the trick and I didn't see either one of you in the thread making a suggestion. When you snooze, you loose.  Wink  Wink
Yes i was my "fade flack" new name idea wasn't liked Tongue and the original it had was obviously shot down.  Ah well I will continue to do the over rotated flick flac and try to get it nice and clean looking.
Logged
Craig
Trade Count: (0)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63

Location:

« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2013, 01:01 PM »


What about the Nirvana, is it out dated?


Yes, superseded by the Nirvana SE, but you can still get a classic Nirvana if you wish.



Have you made any videos showing what cutting edge flying looks like? I'd like to see.

Not personally, but when I see a Prism kite doing some slick combos like this, I'll get my wallet out.

https://vimeo.com/54858261

https://vimeo.com/47602775

https://vimeo.com/63530423

https://vimeo.com/63226488


It's weird, you guys seem to take this so personally, that by dissing Prism we're somehow being anti-American, which is just not the case.
Logged
John Welden
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 479


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2013, 01:19 PM »


What about the Nirvana, is it out dated?


Yes, superseded by the Nirvana SE, but you can still get a classic Nirvana if you wish.



Have you made any videos showing what cutting edge flying looks like? I'd like to see.

Not personally, but when I see a Prism kite doing some slick combos like this, I'll get my wallet out.

https://vimeo.com/54858261

https://vimeo.com/47602775

https://vimeo.com/63530423

https://vimeo.com/63226488


It's weird, you guys seem to take this so personally, that by dissing Prism we're somehow being anti-American, which is just not the case.

I'm not taking it personally, I was just asking a question.  I didn't even know you aren't American.  I was only trying to understand what makes the QP outdated. Which tricks it can't do.   I figured you'd know since you have really strong opinions about it.
Logged
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3017


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2013, 01:25 PM »

Craig,

The videos show those kites doing excellent combos.

I maintain that those same pilots could take a

Nirvana
Quantum Pro
Deep Space
etc

and do the same tricks with the same combos.

The kites might do those combos at different speeds,
attitude, grace, but the tricks would still be done.

I think that you might say the pilots seen in older videos
don't display the combos you appreciated so much in the
referenced videos.

Is there something in those videos a Deep Space, Nirvana,
Quantum Pro, etc. couldn't do with a skilled pilot on the lines?

And thanks for keeping the debate lively. When last I looked,
there were 15 people reading this thread.  Smiley

« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 01:30 PM by chilese » Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
harveystubbs
Trade Count: (+10)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 358


Location:

« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2013, 01:52 PM »


Quote
It's weird, you guys seem to take this so personally, that by dissing Prism we're somehow being anti-American, which is just not the case.

..... I do feel the same way Roll Eyes

Things have moved on since the QP and nirvana. I still fly these but the likes of the superfly, invictus, enzo etc have evolved what can be done.

Quote
And thanks for keeping the debate lively. When last I looked,
there were 15 people reading this thread.

The poor bu**ers  Wink
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 ... 6   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!