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Author Topic: Prism has a newsletter?!?  (Read 7194 times)
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John Welden
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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2013, 01:53 PM »

Craig,

The videos show those kites doing excellent combos.

I maintain that those same pilots could take a

Nirvana
Quantum Pro
Deep Space
etc

and do the same tricks with the same combos.

The kites might do those combos at different speeds,
attitude, grace, but the tricks would still be done.

I think that you might say the pilots seen in older videos
don't display the combos you appreciated so much in the
referenced videos.

Is there something in those videos a Deep Space, Nirvana,
Quantum Pro, etc. couldn't do with a skilled pilot on the lines?

And thanks for keeping the debate lively. When last I looked,
there were 15 people reading this thread.  Smiley

John,

Craig is probably in the kite fanatic stage where you think you must have the latest greatest kite to fly like X flyer in X video.  We've all been there, I get it.

John, you'd laugh if you saw me fly today.  I fly pretty much exactly as I did 10 or so years ago.  Some  newish kite fanatics were at kite hill last summer and told me I was "old Skool".  Lol At least my old Skool s--t looks good.  If someone invents a new Skool trick that doesn't look like the kite is broken, ill do it.
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red sweater
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« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2013, 02:08 PM »

It's weird, you guys seem to take this so personally, that by dissing Prism we're somehow being anti-American, which is just not the case.

The only reference I see to "Amer*" in the thread is about the (re-)naming of tricks, raised by a non-American. Maybe I didn't read closely enough, though. Or maybe you're reading that into people disagreeing about Prism's role.
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coop
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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2013, 02:25 PM »

This is a lively interesting thread. Smiley
Its interesting to read the different opinions. And one has to wonder if stunt kites have really changed all that much in the past 10 years or so. If you were to look at an all black version of 10 different kites from a distance I would bet you couldnt tell them apart. The sail shapes are very similar. So what design feature do these new kites have that make them perform so differently?

Also, in reference to old kites doing new tricks, I read a thread on kitelife awhile back where a poster was asking how to get a new MEFM sail as his was worn through on the LE's from wrap ups(yo yo's). Is that even possible with an MEFM?
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Craig
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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2013, 02:43 PM »

Craig,

The videos show those kites doing excellent combos.

I maintain that those same pilots could take a

Nirvana
Quantum Pro
Deep Space
etc

and do the same tricks with the same combos.


I very much doubt it, none of the above kites can Cynique, I've certainly never seen one anyway.

The kites you mention are still good kites, I've not said otherwise, and individually they can still do most tricks, but it's the speed of transition between tricks that make the newer ones more interesting. The combos are slicker and smoother with less set-up needed for each trick.

And one has to wonder if stunt kites have really changed all that much in the past 10 years or so. If you were to look at an all black version of 10 different kites from a distance I would bet you couldnt tell them apart. The sail shapes are very similar. So what design feature do these new kites have that make them perform so differently?

You'd be amazed what moving a stand-off half an inch inboard or outboard makes,  it's the difference between a trick being possible or not.
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chilese
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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2013, 03:15 PM »

Here is a video of a Nirvana doing a quasi-Cynique.

At least, that's what the title says.

Not really 3 complete reversals, I understand.

cynique (nicht ganz Wink )mit Nirvana


I will work on the Cynique as you have piqued my curiosity.

The speed of transition you write of can be seen

as wonderful or it can be seen as a blurring of the

individual tricks into one continuous tumbling routine,

distinguishable to only those who can indeed appreciate

the King's new clothes.

I guess my age leans me toward more than a heartbeat

of time between tricks.

I applaud your pursuit of non-stop trickery. It is one style

I yearn for, more just so I could say I can do it, than

I would want to do it for more than maybe 10 seconds at a time.

_________________

JW: Your piloting skills of 10 years ago are still greatly

appreciated by many of us who wish we had your Fred Astaire skills.  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 03:22 PM by chilese » Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
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harveystubbs
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2013, 03:29 PM »

Here is a video of a Nirvana doing a quasi-Cynique.

Close but no cigar  Cool



[attachment deleted by admin]
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John Welden
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« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2013, 03:33 PM »

Quote

You'd be amazed what moving a stand-off half an inch inboard or outboard makes,  it's the difference between a trick being possible or not.

Almost always the difference between a kite doing a trick or not is the flyer.  It's nice to think its the kite and all you have to do is buy the right one.

Plus who cares if one kite makes  some tricks a little easier or not?  Who does trick flying because they want something easy to do? Any modern freestyle kite is more than capable enough for the vast majority of flyers. If Debray needs his standoff moved an 1/8th inch, okay fine, otherwise just fly the kite. The least of your worries should be very subtle kite tuning or buying the "best" kite.
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chilese
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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2013, 03:38 PM »

It would appear that the kite's "ability" to perform a Cynique is rooted

in how well the kite locks into a deep turtle. As stated earlier that the

Superfly was designed for a locked turtle, I can completely understand

how this kite can perform the trick so well.

The engineer in me will ask you to realize that when any tool is designed

to perform one task better, there will be other tasks that become less

possible or impossible. I wonder what the Superfly gave up in order to

lock the turtle position so well......
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John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2013, 03:42 PM »

Craig,

The videos show those kites doing excellent combos.

I maintain that those same pilots could take a

Nirvana
Quantum Pro
Deep Space
etc

and do the same tricks with the same combos.


I very much doubt it, none of the above kites can Cynique, I've certainly never seen one anyway.

The kites you mention are still good kites, I've not said otherwise, and individually they can still do most tricks, but it's the speed of transition between tricks that make the newer ones more interesting. The combos are slicker and smoother with less set-up needed for each trick.

And one has to wonder if stunt kites have really changed all that much in the past 10 years or so. If you were to look at an all black version of 10 different kites from a distance I would bet you couldnt tell them apart. The sail shapes are very similar. So what design feature do these new kites have that make them perform so differently?

You'd be amazed what moving a stand-off half an inch inboard or outboard makes,  it's the difference between a trick being possible or not.

i can and have gotten both the ds std and ds ul to cynique
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Sine Metu!
harveystubbs
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2013, 03:55 PM »


distinguishable to only those who can indeed appreciate

the King's new clothes

Just because you can't see it doesn't make it wrong. Roll Eyes

Things move on and progress. This is what keeps any sport alive and current. It's not just the tricks the newest kites do but it's the way kites do them as well as the transition between them.
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harveystubbs
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2013, 03:56 PM »

Craig,

The videos show those kites doing excellent combos.

I maintain that those same pilots could take a

Nirvana
Quantum Pro
Deep Space
etc

and do the same tricks with the same combos.


I very much doubt it, none of the above kites can Cynique, I've certainly never seen one anyway.

The kites you mention are still good kites, I've not said otherwise, and individually they can still do most tricks, but it's the speed of transition between tricks that make the newer ones more interesting. The combos are slicker and smoother with less set-up needed for each trick.

And one has to wonder if stunt kites have really changed all that much in the past 10 years or so. If you were to look at an all black version of 10 different kites from a distance I would bet you couldnt tell them apart. The sail shapes are very similar. So what design feature do these new kites have that make them perform so differently?

You'd be amazed what moving a stand-off half an inch inboard or outboard makes,  it's the difference between a trick being possible or not.

i can and have gotten both the ds std and ds ul to cynique

I would like to see a video of both
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harveystubbs
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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2013, 04:06 PM »

It would appear that the kite's "ability" to perform a Cynique is rooted

in how well the kite locks into a deep turtle. As stated earlier that the

Superfly was designed for a locked turtle, I can completely understand

how this kite can perform the trick so well.

The engineer in me will ask you to realize that when any tool is designed

to perform one task better, there will be other tasks that become less

possible or impossible. I wonder what the Superfly gave up in order to

lock the turtle position so well......

It is more complicated than this. Have you flown one?

The interesting thing about the superfly from an engineering perspective is that the weight balance is almost at the centre t rather than above it and it tends to rely of the mechanical lift on the sail below the spine to give the depth of turtle. This alone makes it different to many other deep turtle kites whose centre of mass tend to be a bit further up the spine. I have not noticed any negative effects in other tricks.
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John Welden
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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2013, 04:14 PM »

A: Why does the "cynique" even have a special name? It's reversing lazy susan's, who cares? I hate combos with specific rules so someone can give it a name. You HAVE to do at least 3 rotations or its NOT a cynique.  Roll Eyes You have to reverse cointoss off the RIGHT wing tip for a Hash Brownie or its NOT a Hash Brownie.

B: The cynique doesn't even look good.  Who cares, it's just another combo.

C: Can people please stop with high speed flippy floppy tricking? Okay, we get it, you can do 5000 pitch based combos at mach 5, thanks.  Roll Eyes  Fly up, back flip, flippy floppy spinniny spin wham bam. Fly up, back flip, flippy floppy spinniny spin wham bam. Fly up, back flip, flippy floppy spinniny spin wham bam.Fly up, back flip, flippy floppy spinniny spin wham bam. Crappy 540 thing. Fly up, back flip, flippy floppy spinniny spin wham bam.
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chilese
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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2013, 04:15 PM »

Thank you for the explanation Harvey.

And thank you JW for a chuckle.

I watched a few Mike Fogg videos on the Benson website

in an attempt to further my education.

I'm pretty sure I saw a Cynique or 2, but not the 3 reversing

times per the definition of correctness.

Certainly these pilots are well above my skill level.

If the Superfly gave up nothing to gain something, it would

almost make that 19 grams of ballast worthwhile. Oh, perhaps

it gave up some low wind performance and ability to perform

flat spin tricks. But then flat spin tricks aren't important anymore.

I forgot.  Smiley
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John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
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John Welden
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2013, 04:23 PM »

Thank you for the explanation  ::)Oh, perhaps

it gave up some low wind performance and ability to perform

flat spin tricks. But then flat spin tricks aren't important anymore.

I forgot.  Smiley

No, there aren't any design tradeoffs. Just like every other kite that was the BEST.

It's against the law to do traditional flat spin tricks. If you do they have to be all wonky and ugly.
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