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Author Topic: Getting into a mess... Yes I want an SUL... but which?  (Read 2761 times)
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Ara Ararauna
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« on: April 11, 2013, 02:55 PM »

Hi,

I know I'll regret this  Wink but I think I must ask for your advise...  Roll Eyes

I think it is time for me to get an SUL.

Acknowledging I have no idea on what to get, I fell in love with the Aura when I saw the trial video:
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=9026.0
However, there is not even an approximate date of when it will be available and my birthday is in a month. (although if <highly> recommended I could actually wait...)

I was also thinking on getting a Talon SUL since I already have a UL. But, I don't really know why, I think I would like to have a different make...

I have been looking here and there and SUL's are really much more expensive that ULs so I have to be careful with budget!  :'(

Yesterday I saw the post on the open sourcing of the Essence SUL:
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=7653.0
It looks also really nice and opinions are that it is very capable...
... and I kind of got into the mood of building it.
Unfortunately I have not enough time at the moment and I would have to wait until summer holidays in August  Sad way too far into the future... (although if also <highly> recommended I could indeed wait...)

To add to my total disorientation, today I have learnt that many supposedly SUL models actually weigh the same as my Talon UL, so I don't understand how they can be SULs...

I think that having already the Talon UL I want to get a "REAL" SUL; in other words, one that is <really> for (almost) no wind.

I know SUL's need a different flying technique and very smooth flying. But this is something I like. I think I can be good at it. I like the elegance of the movements in the videos I've seen.

So any help, comments, suggestions, etc., will be enormously appreciated.

Cheers!
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Duals: NoName (NoBrand), Nexus (Prism), Soul (Flying Wings), Talon UL (JoE), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura SUL custom (Skyburner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
Gardner
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2013, 03:27 PM »

I got a Widow Maker UL.  Beautiful kite which I think you would like.
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KaoS
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2013, 05:18 PM »

It really depends on what you want your kite to do. 

Many UL and SUL versions of recognised kites perform very well in lower winds but most of them give something away.  In a LOT of cases, it is harder to roll up or yo-yo a UL, and MUCH harder to roll up a SUL.  There are some exceptions to this rule.  I don't have first hand experience, but I understand the Talon SUL DOES roll up.

If you want a kite that will fly in lower wind than any other, a Skyburner ProDancer SUL is pretty much the benchmark... BUT it doesn't trick (at least not easily, and not like modern trick kites).  It has great precision, wonderful graceful turns, and pulls hard on the lines in next to no wind.  Coming very close to the PD is the smaller, more nimble HQ Shadow.  It has a very low bottom end, and it does a lot of tricks very well.  It is a very popular kite amongst GWTW contributers.  About the only thing it doesn't do easily is roll up.

Another thing to be aware of... one manufacturer's SUL doesn't necessarily fly in as low wind as another.  At least one kite I know of has a full range of Vented, Standard, Light, Ultra Light and SUL.  The SUL performs very well in much lighter wind than the UL, the UL in much lighter wind than the Light, and so on.  However, there are a number of SULs which will easily fly in lighter winds than one from this particular manufacturer.

So you need to be clear in your own mind what your major priority/objective is for the kite.  Feel free to ask a heap more questions  Smiley

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Kevin Sanders

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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 05:30 PM »

I called on the OCIUS SUL today.. there are a couple good videos of it also.. same pilot as the AURA Smiley   great flying DEVON!  and it's made by skyburner.
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Ca Ike
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 05:40 PM »

It really depends on what you want your kite to do. 

Many UL and SUL versions of recognised kites perform very well in lower winds but most of them give something away.  In a LOT of cases, it is harder to roll up or yo-yo a UL, and MUCH harder to roll up a SUL.  There are some exceptions to this rule.  I don't have first hand experience, but I understand the Talon SUL DOES roll up.

If you want a kite that will fly in lower wind than any other, a Skyburner ProDancer SUL is pretty much the benchmark... BUT it doesn't trick (at least not easily, and not like modern trick kites).  It has great precision, wonderful graceful turns, and pulls hard on the lines in next to no wind.  Coming very close to the PD is the smaller, more nimble HQ Shadow.  It has a very low bottom end, and it does a lot of tricks very well.  It is a very popular kite amongst GWTW contributers.  About the only thing it doesn't do easily is roll up.

Another thing to be aware of... one manufacturer's SUL doesn't necessarily fly in as low wind as another.  At least one kite I know of has a full range of Vented, Standard, Light, Ultra Light and SUL.  The SUL performs very well in much lighter wind than the UL, the UL in much lighter wind than the Light, and so on.  However, there are a number of SULs which will easily fly in lighter winds than one from this particular manufacturer.

So you need to be clear in your own mind what your major priority/objective is for the kite.  Feel free to ask a heap more questions  Smiley


Really good advice here.  Decide if its flippy stuff you want or just the ability to fly in a gnats fart and then we can start talking kites Tongue   Most all suls will do rotational tricks and some will get into the JL territory but few true suls will do the flippy stuff.  The SULs you see doing the flippy stuff I don't consider true suls when your talking needing at least 2 mph to fly them as thats more UL range.
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Wayner
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 05:48 PM »

So you need to be clear in your own mind what your major priority/objective is for the kite.  Feel free to ask a heap more questions  Smiley


Great point.

Some SUL are light enought to fly indoors while others are heavier but allow for more trickability.

Do you want to fly in little to no wind but very limited tricks (rotational stuff), or do you want to fly in winds lighter that your Talon UL and still be able to do tricks.  Shocked

Put another way. Do you want a kite that will letyou fly so you have something to do if the wind dies? or do you want to do some tricks when the wind is too light for your Talon UL?

Your Talon UL is not a true low wind UL. UL Kites like the WM, Shadow, Mojo, Freestylist to name a few fly in lower wind. However the Talon UL is the able to do all tricks including rollup. Well wortht the extra wind it needs, most of the other low wind ULs trade trick preformance for low winds capability.

Learning to fly in almost no wind is a skill that must be learned before your even start tricks. SO I would lean toward a heavier but more trickable SUL or the Shadow. You will find it easier to fly and it will fly in winds lower than your Talon.

Heard for two sources that the Aura is planned on a "light" 4oz indoor version and a "heavier" 5oz more trickable outdoor version. The heavier version is the one I have been luckly enought to fly.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 06:30 PM by Wayner » Logged
Gamelord
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 06:13 PM »

The Ocius SUL is one kite that is a true SUL and will still trick.  As mentioned above, it doesn't trick nearly as easy as the standard but it is still capable.

AFIK, the Talon SUL is going to be exceptionally difficult to find as JoE has basically stopped production and (last I heard) was closing up shop.  Unless you can find one in stock somewhere or on the used market, the Talon SUL may be a rare artifact to get.

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RobB
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 07:30 PM »

As mentioned above, there are two types of SUL, the one that can really FLY in no wind (but few tricks) and the one that can fly in 0.5-2mph with work, or do tricks in 2+mph. The first type, what some may call 'true SULs' can only do a few tricks no matter what the wind speed. I fly both types, as light wind flying is my favorite kind of flying,  I get excited when I see the flags barely waving when I get to the beach.
My goto true SULs are mostly out of production (Prism Ozone, PBSK Vanishing Point & BadBoy UL, ProDancer), but my favorite trick SULs are the Fearless & Sea Devil, both still available. They can do any trick out there, in 1-2mph of wind. I have many other trick capable SULs, but they don't compare.
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Charles P
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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 09:04 PM »


To add to my total disorientation, today I have learnt that many supposedly SUL models actually weigh the same as my Talon UL, so I don't understand how they can be SULs...



Ara, I was confused about this as well and I can not say I know all of why some heavier kites are classified as SUL's but I can speak for the I Seven SUL (outstanding kite) which I decided on because I was leaning more towards trick performance than actual super low wind range flying.
 The Seven SUL weighs just over 8 ounces and it gets away with being an SUL due to its sail being primarily made of mylar which does not allow any wind to bleed through the sail. It will fly in almost no wind, say 0.5mph but it takes a lot of work and a lot of backing up. Once the winds get up to around 2mph it will perform great.
 The other kite I was considering when I opted for the Seven was the Ocius SUL, it weighs 4 ounces and will fly well in 0.5mph.
 It does pretty much anything you ask of it but getting it to roll up is problematic and some other pitch related tricks can be difficult as well.
  If your really looking for a very low wind kite I would suggest an Ocius.

     Good luck in your search.
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In the bag,

 Seven SUL, Deep Space UL, Seven Std., Deep Space Vented
tpatter
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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 10:16 PM »

If you want it to flip and flop in addition to fly, then it needs a bit of mass in order to do it in a proper/reasonable manner.

I can't tell you how many SULs that I love right up until I try to do the tricks that I like to do with them.  One pop yoyo usually often not there, decent comete mostly missing, also a good feeling jacobs ladder can be tough for many designs and often impossible to any reasonable degree.

Many true SULs can axel, 540, and fade all day.  Of course, you often have to learn how to fly just that one kite cause it can need inputs that are all its own.  To each his own, but I don't like having to go too far out of my way in order to make a particular kite work for me.

So, for me, I either accept that the kite that I want to fly will be a little more work in extremely low winds, or I forget about some of the stuff that I love doing and work on 540s, fades, backspins, and maybe the taz on a different sort of SUL.  Or, just have 2 SUL kites - a tricky one and one that's not so tricky.

Lam's SULs, to me, are the best at lowest wind, but all the tricks.  I like the TNT Zero for lowest wind, but not very pitchy, although it does plenty to keep you interested.  Finally, a near-indoor kite for just flying, but not doing much tricking - I used to use my Nik-Nak for that, I think the PD SUL is much better, but I've never flown one.

Good luck.

Tom
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Hadge
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2013, 02:02 AM »


AFIK, the Talon SUL is going to be exceptionally difficult to find as JoE has basically stopped production and (last I heard) was closing up shop. 

Are you sure about this Kent? !!  Huh  I've heard nothing this side of the pond and there is nothing on the website. 
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Age and cunning will always overcome youth and skill!

In the bag - HQ Shadow, Prism 4D, Flying Wings Soul Mid Vent, HQ Jive (1), Spiderkites Zodarion, 'Paw' modded HQ Maestro ll, HQ Delta Hawk.
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2013, 03:25 AM »

My favourite SUL is the Prism Ozone.  But you can't go wrong with the Nik-Nak for outside and the I-Nak for indoors.  I'm also partial to the Prism 4D. 

If you have lots of cash the Veyron is also on my list I just can't afford it yet Smiley
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Kites: x2 Jazz; x2 Microns; Quantum; Zephyr; Ozone; Alien; Illusion 2K; E2; E3; Redback (hold the line Kites); Silver Fox (vented) Talon & Iridium on the way !!!
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2013, 04:38 AM »

Veyron SUL!
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indigo_wolf
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2013, 07:00 AM »

AFIK, the Talon SUL is going to be exceptionally difficult to find as JoE has basically stopped production and (last I heard) was closing up shop. 

 Huh Sad  Sad  Cry

ATB,
Sam
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2013, 07:32 AM »

AFIK, the Talon SUL is going to be exceptionally difficult to find as JoE has basically stopped production and (last I heard) was closing up shop. 

 Huh Sad  Sad  Cry

ATB,
Sam

It's not all bad news.

I no longer make kites full-time, that doesn't mean I can't make them ever again. If you want one just let me know but the downside is that you'll have to wait a lot longer for it. I only have two days per week to work on them (if I can) and I may need to wait for a few confirmed orders before buying materials.

At the moment I'm buffering some cash ready to start making a few for people who've contacted me, not sure when this will be but they will be made.

Later I might just make a nice looking Talon once in a while and put it up for sale or auction, not sure which way to go.

Not quite buried yet  Cheesy
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