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Author Topic: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???  (Read 16970 times)
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anOldMan
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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2009, 01:10 AM »

There is a difference between flying a kite and making it fly.
You can make just about any kite fly if you are sufficiently athletic and determined.

Yes but, you have to make even the lightest kites fly. A Vapor won't fly in light winds, you have to make it fly.

This will never be settled because there are too many variables and too many opinions on the definition of flying. I bet this topic has come up on this forum 50 times over the years.

I agree with JW, that there are a lot of opinions on this subject. But there are not a lot of variables.

There are only 3:  The kite, The wind (or lack of), and The Pilot.

Situation !.  The wind hits the kite and the pilot tries the manipulate the kite based on the wind. What we all want - manageable wind.

Situation 2. The pilot manipulates the kite in a way that perform without the aid of any wind. (indoor with NO breezes).

Situation 3. The rub  Wink  Wink, a combination of situation 1 & 2. There is not enough wind for the pilot to manipulate the kite and the kite is not designed to perform without wind.

Some where within these 3 situation there must be a agreed definition of flying a stunt kite.  Huh  Roll Eyes
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Hill  :-? :-?   What hill?   I don't remember any HILL!!  :-? :-?

anOldMan
lylenc
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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2009, 06:33 AM »

There may be sub-variables if they aren't primary variables 4, 5, 6, etc.

quality of wind: smooth, light & variable, gusts

other weather: hot, cold, rain, hail

field condition: loose sand, packed sand, grass, weeds, pot holes, goal posts, drift wood, fence

field location: wide open space, nearby wind obstructions (turbulence due to hills, trees, buildings)

hazards: people, dogs, pickups (almost got hit once by a 4x4 racing down the beach)

Throw in enough bad stuff and it's not "flying" no matter how good the pilot, wind, and kite. It's time for a beer.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 06:47 AM by lylenc » Logged

Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
anOldMan
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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2009, 03:14 PM »

There may be sub-variables if they aren't primary variables 4, 5, 6, etc.

quality of wind: smooth, light & variable, gusts

other weather: hot, cold, rain, hail

field condition: loose sand, packed sand, grass, weeds, pot holes, goal posts, drift wood, fence

field location: wide open space, nearby wind obstructions (turbulence due to hills, trees, buildings)

hazards: people, dogs, pickups (almost got hit once by a 4x4 racing down the beach)

Throw in enough bad stuff and it's not "flying" no matter how good the pilot, wind, and kite. It's time for a beer.

The last statement is very true, but I find I am still out there work my ass off.   Wink Wink
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Hill  :-? :-?   What hill?   I don't remember any HILL!!  :-? :-?

anOldMan
kitekrazy
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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2009, 09:06 PM »

 I framed an Aerie K3 with Gforce skinnys and it will fly indoors.  If there's a kite I like, I buy another one and reframe it.
Sometimes when companies make SULs they try to reduce weight in areas like the nose and leading edge.
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RonG
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« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2009, 03:59 AM »

Sometimes when companies make SULs they try to reduce weight in areas like the nose and leading edge.
They often do.  And sometimes other things are different, like standoff placement and length for instance.

Much of the time kite "x" standard reframed != kite "x" UL.
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Will Sturdy
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« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2009, 06:18 PM »

And sometimes the sail itself is different... IIRC the nirvana SUL has a slightly different sail from the standard and UL (slightly shallower)?
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ae
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« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2010, 11:09 AM »

* ae digs the dust of the thread...

I do have one of those SSULs or what i cal them XUL.
Just returned from flying it today over her in Berlin Germany.
At first we have winds about 3 mph, gusting up to 7mph. Perfect for a stress test. Later it dropped down
where you had to use cigarette smoke to even see where the wind was coming from.
Kite is of my own design, named Spectre, since ghost and phantom are already in use for beautiful kites.





I can fly the kite without a problem and without moving in the sub 1mph range.
In fact i was testing out how good that works and since someone had brought a camping chair to the flying spot,
i occupied it and flew about half and hour just sitting in it.
Its slow moving, pretty preceise and loves to cut corners into the sky.
But tricks are extremly hard to do. Not much moving mass, even a axel needs actual work.

Why did i build the kite?
Well, Berlin has &%#*ty flying spots, and rather small ones too, plus days we have more then 3bft are rare gems.
Close to zero wind days are much more common. Plus it saves my butt when i have to move across a flied which
the wild boars love to dig in during  the night.
Plus i wanted to see what can be done with modern material in the weight department.

Materials:
Leading edges are tapered avia breeze 2 and top spreader is avia breeze 2 non tapered.
Spine and bottom spreaders are avia skinny 2 ul.
Standoffs 2mm microcarbon tubes. Yes, they are hollow Smiley
Sail is made form 0.3 oz CubenFibre.
The entire beasty clocks in at 97.1 grams currently at a wingspan of 249cm.
3.42oz at 8.17 feet wingspan.

Choice of flying line also plays a big part at such extrems. The spectre flys best on
20lbs Berkerly Whiplash fishing line. Which is a braided dyneema at extrem thin diameter.
Listed at 0.06mm, 0.0024 inch. I also found that using a moderate line length is best.
Around 20 meter works perfectly. To short a line and the flight gets to hecktic, airflow
has no time to stabilize across the sail area. but its easier do to 3D flying with short lines.
360, up and overs etc.

In short, its a old school beauty flier at minimal winds, not a trickmachine . Exactly what i wanted.

Best Wishes Andre



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John Welden
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« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2010, 11:29 AM »

Sounds awesome, great job getting the weight so low.

I'd love to try that baby.

JW
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jaybett
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« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2010, 11:35 AM »

Great looking and performing kite.

Thanks for sharing,

Jay
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mikenchico
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« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2010, 11:39 AM »

Right up John's alley, I hear if he feels the wind on the back of his neck he goes home  Wink

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"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see" John W Lennon

"People do not quit playing because they grow old, they grow old because they quit playing" George Bernard Shaw
ae
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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2010, 11:01 AM »

Thanks guys,

I'm pretty proud of it. It flys so well.
I plan for the next protoype to introduce a bit more chamber into the airfoil and make the sail a little flatter, plus i want to add some small winglets. I hope to improve its forward drive at low wind and mae it more silent when the winds picks up a little.
And of course, shave of some more weight Smiley
Already secured a lighter glue tape.
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2010, 11:35 AM »

So that's pretty light sail material. What can you tell us about it?
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Allen, AKA kitehead
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« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2010, 12:01 PM »

So that's pretty light sail material. What can you tell us about it?

Yikes  Huh  Huh  Huh

"WT/SQ YD= .33 oz and .48 oz.   This is the lightest wt. outdoor fabric we have ever seen.  It is 50% lighter than Kevlar, four times more durable than Kevlar and lasts as long as Spectra and remarkable weighs less than 1/2 oz. per square yard.  It flexes without loosing strength.   Cuben Fiber is a laminated fabric constructed from plasma treated Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMWPE)  fibers and monofilament polyester film.  Cuben Fiber retains 100% of its original strength after being folded 250 times.  It is not effected by salt water nor does it soak up water.  It has great UV resistance and is extremely water resistant.  Uses: great for extremely lightweight tarps, rain gear, stuff sacks, packcovers. "

Note:  Due to the manufactruring process when Cuben is produced it occassionally has small dye imperfections that often look like small "grease spot"- this does not effect the integrity of the fabric.

General reference:   ("bolt" size is 54" wide)
15 yds of .48 oz weighs approximately 10.5 oz (~$29.50/yd)
15 yds of .33 oz weighs approximately 7.5 oz   (~$27.15/yd)

Note:While the UHMWPE fiber has great breaking or ultimate strength, its elongation or creep under consistently high loads causes deformation of a sail. The patented treatment of the Cuben Fiber is said to minimize this elongation.

Cuben or Mylar tape can be used for "no-sew" projects.

ATB,
Sam

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Will Sturdy
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« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2010, 12:09 PM »

Cuben Fiber is a very lightweight cloth first developed for America3's america's cup challenge.
It is a dyneema based fabric. It is crazy expensive. Very strong for its weight
It can be purchased through cubic tech.

I have a spec sheet from their 2008 product line. Can't get it to copy and paste well though.

I would like to do some experimenting with it. Haven't quite been able to justify the cost to myself yet though.
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wicastawakan
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2010, 12:59 PM »

There is a video of the TTUL from back in time a bit but worth seeing some no wind/ low wind flying. 
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