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jaydub
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2013, 11:06 AM »

Norm,

That's a difficult one to call and there really wasn't any implied criticism about what you are encouraging people to do.  I really think it's great that people with a lot less experience than me are really going for these trick challenges.

The fact that they are achieving this goals means they will turn out to be much better fliers than me, if they aren't there already.

I was a great fan of ClassyKites forum a few years ago and there was a guy on there called Dave H who used to act as a 'Sergeant-Major' trying us get us all to concentrate on one specific trick at a time and share our experiences.  I'd have to go back and look at the forum again to check what the tricks were but it was simpler stuff like flic-flacs.

That was one approach.  Yours is different and every bit as good.  And if you're wanting to offer prizes, then you need to make the tricks that bit tougher, which is what you have done.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Keep up the good work.

Jon

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chilese
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2013, 12:01 PM »

Barrel Roll

The nose of the kite is basically pointed at you all the time
while it rotates about its spine

Backspin

It's really just a Lazy Susan started with the nose toward you

A lot of modern kites do NOT do backspins.

The Elixir is capable of performing both a barrel roll and a backspin
depending on the inputs.

http://reeddesign.co.uk/kites/tricks/backspincascade.html

The videos I saw here were Barrel Rolls

Perhaps the challenge is in having people understand what the trick is.  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 12:04 PM by chilese » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2013, 02:11 PM »

Maybe Norm is saying that the Trick Challenge is denied.

Or perhaps he doesn't want to change the title of the thread

to "Barrel Roll "Trick Challenge""

Or perhaps my logical presentation of facts confused him.  Wink
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2013, 02:26 PM »

Hmmm... that made me think.
I mean the "backspin" vs the "barrel roll".

So I went to "the origins" as you suggested Chilese, I mean the Prism video on "backspin"
Backspin (Prism kite tricks DVD sample)

and they look as ambiguous or precise (depending on the half empty or half full glass theory) as those in the videos given for this challenge...

So I wonder whether there is really a difference to worry about.

I think the important thing here is to practise and learn to control the kite, whichever name you want to give to the challenge, while having fun together with a bunch of people that have similar motivation, doubts, troubles and energy as one does.

Cheers!  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 02:28 PM by Ara Ararauna » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 02:51 PM »

Norm,

Reed Designs has the written and video representations of a Backspin.

According to the site, these are the definitions set forth by Tricks Party

(both Europe and the now defunct U.S. versions)

The Prism video does show backspins as the nose rotates 360 around

a vertical axis.

While the mama video is excellent and the pilot superb, the kite is doing

a barrel roll. That's what almost all modern kites do with their weighted

keel, straight leading edge and long standoffs. The kite loses its ability to do a true backspin.

I have started threads on trick names before (cynique or reversing lazy susan).

I can only conclude that modern tricksters do not care for correctness as long

as the kite flips around quickly, often and with little regard to elegance.

Norm, if you are going to encourage new pilots, perhaps you could educate

them along with awarding them a pair of your wonderful straps.  Smiley

Or you could award someone 2 pair of straps if they can manage a real

backspin on a modern, weighted trick kite.

Please deny me again. Third time is the charm.  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 02:54 PM by chilese » Logged

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Allen Carter
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2013, 03:06 PM »

So what does the "deny" stamp signify?
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2013, 03:20 PM »

I think it means Norm is the "All Powerful Wizard of Oz"

and we don't get a heart, brain, or straps.
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 03:22 PM »

I don't know why there should be more bickering than helpful input here. After watching all the videos again, I think it has more to do with camera angle & clarity of the video. I would agree that most of Martin's backspins do look like barrel rolls, but that could have to do more with the POV of the camera.
 I know the difference between a backspin and a barrel-roll, and anyone else who tries to learn this trick will soon, too. A barrel-roll is just a backspin with too little slack.
How about more help with the learning of tricks and the enjoyment of flying than splitting hairs as if we were judges at some competition ?   Cool
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 03:34 PM »


How about more help with the learning of tricks and the enjoyment of flying than splitting hairs as if we were judges at some competition ?   Cool

 +1

Surely the point of Norm's challenges is to encourage new fliers to try new tricks not put them off?

Remember, kite flying is supposed to be fun.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 03:38 PM by Hadge » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 03:48 PM »

Kite flying is fun.

However, Norm is judging the videos, hence, the rules he imposes.

I thought I was being helpful:

Explanation
Link to animation and Tricks Party ruling
Description of new trick kite geometry which makes backspins difficult

Norm's "contests" are very popular. Look at the number of replies

to his previous threads.


When my photos are mislabeled, I get emails with corrections.
And then I update the photos so the text is as accurate as possible.
It's a bit of an obligation to be correct.

Beginners, please enter the contest. Just realize what you are doing.
Barrel rolls aren't bad, they're just a different trick than a backspin.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 04:26 PM »

My apology then.

I used the smiley face emoticon several times

and complimented the popularity of your previous

contests. But apparently, that was not enough.

I did get a little testy after the 2nd denial.  Roll Eyes

Even ko mentioned the barrel roll vs. backspin

before I typed a word.

And, just for the record, about 1/3 of the emails I get

do not come across as kind, thoughtful and considerate.

The written word lacks the nuances we use in face-to-face

conversations. I know the writers meant well, but their

choice of words can often be taken differently than intended.

Good luck with your contest.  Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 04:46 PM »

what do you mean even ko jeez John    Smiley I am mortified Keep up the great work BOTH of you And I am looking forward to meeting you on the 19th Norm
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2013, 05:01 PM »

Quote
The written word lacks the nuances we use in face-to-face

conversations.


John, you're absolutely right about this. My only concern is that these challenges continue. People who pursue this challenge are actually going to learn three tricks... the fade, backspin & barrel-roll. You can't learn the backspin without learning the barrel roll... like I said before, it's just a backspin with too little slack.
 I could all ready do most of the tricks that Norm suggests in the challenges, but at his suggestion, I get out there and try to do these tricks with intent instead of freestyling them. It's made me a better flyer, and I'm sure the people who learned the tricks because of the challenges feel enormous satisfaction.

You're right about the modern kites not backspinning as well as old school kites (that can backspin) BUT, my Sea Devils, Fearless, and Seven have a distinct difference between the barrel roll and backspin. You might not be able to see it easily in a video, but you can feel it in the lines & see it in person.

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Charles P
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2013, 06:39 PM »

+1 on RobB's posts
 He is the voice of reason here, also I agree with KO's last post, Norm and Chilese experienced  flyers who love kiting.
 I do like seeing some playfull banter and bickering from time to time but come on guys, lighten up.
 I never new what a barrel roll was until a month or so ago and while doing back spins I noticed the kites attitude change and I said to myself Ah-ha, that's a barrel roll.
 I can back up what RobB said as my Seven (a modern weighted kite) will do both, I'll try to catch it on a video soon.
 Anyhow I really enjoy the Norms challenges, the posts from Norm, Chilese and everyone else for that matter.
 We all have a passion for kites, I don't see any reason to run a fine tooth comb through our hobby.
 
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2013, 08:42 PM »

Well, i had the day off today and there was ZERO wind.  Then I heard a storm was coming  in so I tried to ride the wind for a bit.  It was a bit stormy and I brought the wrong lineset!

  I am NOT good at the fade yet and tried it a bit to low on SHORT lines.  YEA... IT HIT HARD a couple times but I did get a backspin.  SO i am on my way. 

  My question... flying down I pancake, then Pull back. Is it a sweeping pull or a quick tug?  I am at the 10% mark on them Sad  I think I also forget to give slack right after the pull. 

Tomorrows another day!
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