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drmndrew82
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2013, 11:46 PM »

I am not trying to open a can of worms here but I really want to understand the difference between a barrel roll and a backspin. Am I wrong in thinking that they are essentially the same trick, however it is the axis of rotation that changes? Don't they have the same input? Newer kites tend to have tail weights so the kite sits differently in the rotation, right?

I learned that a barrel roll is one of the four parts of the Jacobs ladder. If this is a barrel roll that is cut short, then should this actually be described as a fractured barrel roll? I have never seen barrel roll on a kite tricks listing.

I have never seen a video of a backspin. I watched the prism video on youtube and it looked like a barrel roll to me. Correct me if I am wrong. If anyone has a video of a backspin please let me know. I would like to see this trick so I can differentiate the two.
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fidelio
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« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 12:07 AM »

The only difference, and its slight, is the center of rotation on the backspin is farther away from the nose, accomplished by adding more slack after the rotational input, otherwise they're identical in execution.
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Fdeli
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 12:28 AM »


How about more help with the learning of tricks and the enjoyment of flying than splitting hairs as if we were judges at some competition ?   Cool

 +1

Surely the point of Norm's challenges is to encourage new fliers to try new tricks not put them off?

Remember, kite flying is supposed to be fun.

+1
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Hadge
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2013, 06:34 AM »



  My question... flying down I pancake, then Pull back. Is it a sweeping pull or a quick tug?  I am at the 10% mark on them Sad  I think I also forget to give slack right after the pull. 


It varies from kite to kite, but from what you say it sounds like you need to give it more slack or take a step towards the kite.  Have you tried to enter the fade from an Axel? - the 'Fractured Axel' - put the kite into an Axel but halfway through with the kite nose away give both lines a pull and it should come through into the fade position. As the left wing rises ( in the fade) pull with the right hand - like starting a lawnmower back and slightly out, while giving slack with the left hand and it should start to spin.
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2013, 08:08 AM »

  My question... flying down I pancake, then Pull back. Is it a sweeping pull or a quick tug?  I am at the 10% mark on them Sad  I think I also forget to give slack right after the pull. 

Tomorrows another day!
I could best describe the pull back as a wrist pop with immediate slack. It's tough to put these things in words... Some kites need more, some less.
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trigger
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2013, 02:21 PM »

Thanks guys. Will try tomorrow.  both the "starting lawn mower and wrist pop" are good terms.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
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lylenc
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2013, 05:51 PM »

My one and only attempt at a crude and over-simplified explanation of the difference - Barrel roll vertical plane wingtip rotation VS Backspin horizontal plane wingtip rotation.

Barrel roll: Spine stays mostly horizontal with nose pointing mostly at flyer all the time; wingtips rotate in a vertical plane around the spine.

Backspin: Spine stays mostly horizontal with it and nose revolving (nose alternates between pointing at and away from the flyer) around a vertical line somewhere along the spine close to or at the nose; wingtips also rotate in a horizontal plane around this vertical line, which may be at a different level than the horizontal plane the nose is rotating in.

That's how I see it - similar set-up and inputs, but perpendicular difference in wingtip rotations. If enough of us say the same thing in different ways, the light bulb will eventually come on for you. If this makes things more confusing for you, please ignore it.
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Craig     Walla Walla, WA     Just One More!
Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2013, 01:08 AM »

I'm on my way guys & gals!

Please look here!
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=9667.msg86340#new

I'm so motivated and happy  Cool
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2013, 02:01 PM »

Answer to Norm moved to the other thread...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 09:49 AM by Ara Ararauna » Logged

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RobB
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2013, 09:44 PM »

In thinking more about Backspins vs. Barrel-Rolls... I was watching my Fearless video from December. I think Tom brought it up, too, that the Fearless can do both, and it's a (relatively) modern trick kite. So, what I found is that when I was sloppy with my flying, and forgot to give enough slack, the kite barrel-rolled. When I hit it right, I think that even though the stealth kite is hard to see, you will see a distinct difference in what looks like a backspin.
The video's long, but it's full of fades & backspins (barrel-rolls). This is when I was working on trying to change the direction of spin...
1:45... Backspin ?   Grin

Flying the Fearless Tattoo SUL.... December 2012
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RobB
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« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2013, 04:41 AM »

Hey Norm... I really didn't want to suggest that the reversing rotation be a requirement, just really was wondering if it was acceptable. The way you do it in your original video is hard enough, to catch the spin, pause it, and then spin again.
That's one thing that's not getting too much attention here is the catch. It's way harder than the backspin barrel-roll. (BSBR ?  Shocked ) It took me months to learn how to backspin, but years to learn how to catch the backspin into a fade. If you watch the Mama74 video at the end where he does the Backspin Cascade, you'll see clues on how to get the catch. He hits it immediately for the counter rotation, but you can see the moment just before that where he controls & stops the rotation. It helps to slow-mo the video.

As I am still working on getting the AVFFF on film, I'm not going to start with this one, YET. I hope this challenge has been done by that time and we're onto the next one, because 6 will be tough. I mean, I'm going to drive myself nuts trying to do it anyway, only if to have something to drive for.
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Charles P
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2013, 11:55 PM »

 That sounds like a backspin cascade to me!!    Huh

 I've been playing with these but have not quite worked the bugs out. I will definitely give it a go.   Angry

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John Welden
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 01:48 PM »

If I get the chance, ill make an Elixir backspin video and it might help people to see what's going on. The Elixir is king of slow and flat backspins.
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