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np
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« on: May 12, 2013, 06:59 AM »

 Smiley
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 12:05 PM by np » Logged
Hadge
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 08:58 AM »

Oh.....kayyyy......that was a little...er...unusual   Huh Huh

But actually very informative. Grin

So it would seem I've been doing Barrel Rolls - slack arm forward and 'pull' arm holding constant pressure - for a while now - not always on purpose - but I couldn't get it to backspin - ie; with the Lawnmower pull action- until quite recently.  Smiley

Good post Norm, shows the difference very clearly! Grin

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 12:59 PM »

We have discussed this video before.

There are NO backspins in this video.

They are all Barrel Rolls.

To see what a Backspin looks like:

Place a kite with its belly up on a table.
Start with the nose pointed toward you.
Rotate the kite's center around the center of the table
keeping the belly up at all times.

That is a Backspin.
The kite stays on its back and it spins.

See animation here:
http://reeddesign.co.uk/kites/tricks/backspin.html

If the kite had started in a turtle, then it would be a lazy susan.

Note that in the video, the nose of the kite stays mostly
pointed at the pilot. The kite is spinning about its spine.
Those are Barrel Rolls.

Most modern kites do Barrel Rolls.

The axis of rotation is key.

Rotate about spine: Barrel Roll
Rotate about center-T: axel (belly down), lazy susan (belly up, nose away), backspin (belly up, nose forward)
Rotate about Lower Spreaders: Yo-yo
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:20 PM by chilese » Logged

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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 03:01 PM »

Hmmm... but then the fact is that I haven't seen a backspin.  Undecided
According to what you say Chilese, no videos anyone has shown here have a real backspin.
The animation you have referenced in two posts is merely theoretical.  Roll Eyes
I'd really like to see a real one.  Tongue
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 03:11 PM »

A backspin is the more difficult trick.

On modern kites with a yank-n-spank approach,
you will get a barrel roll almost all the time.

While I have done a few backspins, it's usually
on an older, flatter kite like the Elixir.

Around the 1 minute mark are some backspins,
although they're not good. I needed a smoother,
softer pull to get a better backspin.

This was 11 VFs ago (almost 3 years).
Shot on the first and only take.
You may want to switch to 720 and full screen.

Wish I had a better example to show you.
I am not the trickster many here are.

Feel free to ridicule the VF entry.
That's why I stopped competing in these events.  Roll Eyes
VF15: John Chilese
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 03:19 PM by chilese » Logged

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zippy8
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 04:14 PM »

On modern kites with a yank-n-spank approach, you will get a barrel roll almost all the time.

Ah, nothing like a good old fashioned generalisation.  Wink

The thing is this:- the instructions for a Backspin are to get your kite into a Fade then pull one line and slack the other. Do this and many modern kites will reward you with something very much like a series of Barrel Rolls. It takes a little more nuance to get a tail weighted, deep sailed kite to rotate flat. It's an upshot of their design and many people simply don't care enough about that nuance to worry about it. This is perfectly understandable.

If you really do wish to approach the simulated perfection of Roy's animations then you will be requiring a flatter kite. That means something pre-millennial or a rare-as-hen's-wisdom-teeth Element.

Quote
Feel free to ridicule the VF entry. That's why I stopped competing in these events.  Roll Eyes

In fairness VF is mostly centered on the FA Forum (aka The Other Place™) and we ridicule anything and anyone without prejudice. Taking it personally or, heaven forbid, seriously doesn't really reflect the intention.

Mike.
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chilese
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 05:35 PM »

Why yes it does.

Thanks.  Smiley
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fidelio
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 05:57 PM »

But you can't get a kite in flight to do either of those things.
What you can get is a rotation around the nose with the wings of the kite essentially following the shape of a cone (barrel roll) or a rotation like a spinning top toy which has run out of energy and fallen over but still rotating around a spot but not the tip (backspin).

But more importantly, it's a backspin, just a backspin, maybe a sloppy one, but still a backspin. Only chilese argues this point (every time).  Let's move on.
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 06:07 PM »

I agree with John. 

It is far far more difficult to do a proper backspin than it is to d a barrel roll.  A barrel roll requires little slack on the offhand and none on the input hand.  A backspin, at least on most modern kites, requires lots of slack on both if you want it flat.  In anything but light light wind I usually don't bother and just settle for the backroll or barrelspin if you like.

There is nothing like doing a super flat backspin with my SUL Fearless in next to no wind.   The difference is elegance.

Tom

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fidelio
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 06:37 PM »

I'm not suggesting there's not a difference, I'm suggesting it's not worth a distinction. Just because new kites do sloppy axels, we don't give it a new name.
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 06:50 PM »

Just because new kites do sloppy axels, we don't give it a new name.

New kites can be made to do plenty fine Axels, if you put your mind to it. Perhaps it just comes down to what a person is prepared to personally accept as the criteria for having done something correctly. I would draw parallels with the 540 that I have distinct memories of once being called the 540 Flat Spin. Plenty of people claim to have done a 540 but, by all that is holy, they haven't come close to a 540 Flat Spin.

If I am trying to do a Backspin, I want it to be flat - for a reasonably close interpretation of the word "flat". If it isn't to my satisfaction then I haven't done the move properly.

YMMV, funny-world-if-we-were-all-the-same, and so on and so forth, etc, etc.

Mike.
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RobB
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 09:26 PM »

A backspin is the more difficult trick.

On modern kites with a yank-n-spank approach,
you will get a barrel roll almost all the time.

While I have done a few backspins, it's usually
on an older, flatter kite like the Elixir.

Around the 1 minute mark are some backspins,
although they're not good. I needed a smoother,
softer pull to get a better backspin.

This was 11 VFs ago (almost 3 years).
Shot on the first and only take.
You may want to switch to 720 and full screen.

Wish I had a better example to show you.
I am not the trickster many here are.

Feel free to ridicule the VF entry.
That's why I stopped competing in these events.  Roll Eyes
VF15: John Chilese


John, I love that 'Lix ! One of the best looking kites ever. And no, I don't think anyone who enters VF should get any ridicule. Heck, my first VF entry wasn't even accepted it was that bad. Learning to fly in the frame has made me a better flyer, challenges like Norm's have made me better, and seeing anyone fly who has taken the time to make a video has made me better.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 09:19 AM »

Around the 1 minute mark are some backspins,
although they're not good. I needed a smoother,
softer pull to get a better backspin.

Yes, I see. I still think the difference in practise is subtle because there exists a continuum between backspins and barrel rolls and therefore you can very easily get hybrids which are difficult to categorize.
As someone said: "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. Yogi Berra"

So... as said... let's move on  Smiley

« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 09:24 AM by Ara Ararauna » Logged

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jaybett
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 12:08 PM »


If you really do wish to approach the simulated perfection of Roy's animations then you will be requiring a flatter kite. That means something pre-millennial or a rare-as-hen's-wisdom-teeth Element.

Mike.


Would the pre-millennial kites be the Gemini/Elixir?

The Blue Moon Exile does or at least appears to do a flat backspin. Would the older kites, get even flatter?

Jay
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zippy8
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 12:24 PM »

Would the pre-millennial kites be the Gemini/Elixir?

They are examples of pre-millennial kites, yes. And good ones at that but there are others.

Quote
Would the older kites, get even flatter?

Oh yes. I refer you to this in lieu of simply typing stuff out again but the relevant section is "the Wasp has standoffs that measure 19cm. A Fury .85 has an almost identical wingspan but has standoffs of 28cm". Kites that predate the discovery/development of the Backspin can be taught this move retrospectively and not only are they flat, they are fast too.

Mike.
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