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Author Topic: Disappointed by the Le Quartz  (Read 2295 times)
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 10:01 AM »

Beautiful!
Tell your son he's done a Yoyo before I have!
So I'm envious in a healthy way  Smiley

Yes, I'm looking forward to getting a nice kite.
Cheers!
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 11:45 AM »

That yoyo doesn't look bad at all!!

 Cool
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 10:49 AM »

Hi,

I have not been able to do Chilise's test because it has been incredibly windy...   Sad

However, I am finding some issues in my settings.

First, my standoffs were placed: inner at 200mm from center T and outer at 80mm from the inner.
So now I have modified them to:
I also have the inner standoff set at 240mm from Center T and the outer standoff 98mm from the inner standoff

The interesting thing is that the shape of the sail does look better now. Like more uniformly tense.

Now, I was checking the bridle.
I had used the original Christian's settings defined at Tom's web site: http://www.tweelijners.com/tom/tomskitesite-en/KBB5.html

But at some point I started messing around with the knots at the center T and so the Inner leg is now 58.5cm instead of 62cm.
The rest is fine.

I haven't changed anything yet because I want to do Chilese's test first to get the feel of what is going on.

Now, after I've done that, I would like to try this setting you gave me from Hugo's description but I don't understand one thing.
When he says at the beginning:
**CONFIRMED OPTIONAL BRIDLE SETTINGS w/ EXPLANATION from Hugo on KB's forums***

Upper leg: 22.44 inches (57 cm), meassures are taken on the kite from the knot on the top to the point where the inner leg is connecting.
Lower leg: 19.09 inches (48.5 cm)
Turbo: 2.36 inches (6 cm)
Innerleg: 26.77 inches (68 cm)


I don't get what he means by "meassures are taken on the kite from the knot on the top to the point where the inner leg is connecting".
The inner leg does not connect directly to the upper leg!
The inner leg connects to the turbo and NOT to the upper leg...  Huh
So does he mean that he is including the turbo in this "upper leg" measure?

Thanks...
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 10:59 AM »

The standoffs can be set around 200mm/+98mm as some have done.  I tried that and it didnt appear to make too much change.  But, the sail did seem to have less tension.  I reverted back to 240/98mm.

Yes, the inner leg is assumed to be including the turbo portion.  That particular bridle setup they created for structil frames really pushed the tow points away from the frame reducing the stress load the shorter bridle setup created.  Let us know how it feels.  I may build a 2nd Quartz for my youngest child to crash around and would likely use that bridle setup.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 11:37 AM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 11:29 AM »

Yes, the inner leg is assumed to be including the turbo portion.

You mean the upper leg, no?  Huh
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 12:10 PM »

Yes, the inner leg is assumed to be including the turbo portion.

You mean the upper leg, no?  Huh

The first measurement is the Uphaul line starting from the knot at the LE connector down to the adjustment larks head knot from which the turbo is a part of.  At least thats what I've understood it to be. Smiley  That's if you are using a bridle where the up/out hauls are one piece.  Rather than the US style Up/In haul being one piece.

So from a construction point of view I relate the Turbo as part of the inner leg or Inhaul, as it is physically one piece of bridle line that is larked to the Uphaul/Outhaul line.

From a pilot point of view I can see relating the Turbo portion as part of the Uphaul.  Although I would not take measurements in that manner.

I think Im making things more confusing! Smiley

« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 03:51 PM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2013, 03:07 AM »

Right, but then why does he give a separate length for the turbo?  Undecided
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2013, 07:01 AM »

OK, I'm still not sure I understand... (I'm a bit slow)  Roll Eyes

Would this be the way to define the bridle with Hugo's settings?


Or would the 57cm include the 6cm of the Turbo?

And what about the activator leg? There is no length provided...
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2013, 07:39 AM »

Ara,

Based on your image above that is exactly how I would define the 2nd version bridle.  The "activator leg" is actually just a keep line and never creates any tension on any bridle leg.  At least it never should be.  So the activator leg length and its location would still remain the same.  You must look at the new lengths as material or bridle line added to the ends of the bridle configuration.  Since I had knotted pigtails at each connector I was able to play with these new bridle setups easily by moving each leg lower, lengthening each leg by 1.5 cm every knot I went down.  The Turbo length is simply the position/distance of the tow-line pigtail on the physical Inhaul line from the larks knot attached to the physical Up/Outhaul line.  That's why I have always considered the Inhaul and the Turbo one in the same because they are from the same single physical line. I do not believe there are any bridle measurements that ever list the Uphaul length inclusive of the Turbo length in their measurements. 

Translation of my terms for bridle legs in relation to your image  Smiley

Uphaul = Upper
Outhaul = Lower
Inhaul = Inner
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 08:04 AM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2013, 11:02 AM »

OK, I just came back from flyi... looking stupid.  Embarrassed
The wind was awful. Even my Talon UL was flying awful... and I lost a rollbar from the TalonUL...  Sad

Anyway, since the wind was coming and going, I did the tests Chilese suggested for the L'Quartz when no wind was blowing.

1. Without changing the current configuration I had on the kite, I pulled a strong launch and observed. The kite went up around 6m. So that sounded correct.
2. I then corrected Inhaul from 58.5 to 62. Tried again. Not much difference...
3. I then put a twist in the uphaul around the US as Chilese suggested. Tried again... Not much difference
 :-?
4. I then decided to put 15g of tail weight (before it had 10g). The kite went up around 4m.
So I decided to try to fly with the new weight and the bridle set at standard lengths set by Chris (and no extra twists or any other changes).

It seemed to fly smooth and half axels were allright.
No possibility of doing 540's...  Sad
This trick I can now do with a very high percentage (90%) of success on my Soul and Talon UL
On the L'Quartz the kite will not do the uneven flair when given sudden slack to then allow for the final pull.
When I give slack the kite just turns as if I were doing a push turn...
:-?

When flying smoothly, if the wind suddenly drops low, the kite starts pecking. And if the wind dies out, the kite backflips once or twice with real ease...
It is as if the kite were unbalanced, but I have tried with 15g, 10g and 5g tail weight and it always does that...

I will modify the bridle to the alternate setting when I have some time. Once I try it I will report back.

However, I am still feeling quite confused and blue about my L'Quartz
 Sad



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Lou
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2013, 11:36 AM »

OK, I just came back from flyi... looking stupid.  Embarrassed
The wind was awful. Even my Talon UL was flying awful... and I lost a rollbar from the TalonUL...  Sad

Anyway, since the wind was coming and going, I did the tests Chilese suggested for the L'Quartz when no wind was blowing.

1. Without changing the current configuration I had on the kite, I pulled a strong launch and observed. The kite went up around 6m. So that sounded correct.
2. I then corrected Inhaul from 58.5 to 62. Tried again. Not much difference...
3. I then put a twist in the uphaul around the US as Chilese suggested. Tried again... Not much difference
 :-?
4. I then decided to put 15g of tail weight (before it had 10g). The kite went up around 4m.
So I decided to try to fly with the new weight and the bridle set at standard lengths set by Chris (and no extra twists or any other changes).

It seemed to fly smooth and half axels were allright.
No possibility of doing 540's...  Sad
This trick I can now do with a very high percentage (90%) of success on my Soul and Talon UL
On the L'Quartz the kite will not do the uneven flair when given sudden slack to then allow for the final pull.
When I give slack the kite just turns as if I were doing a push turn...
:-?

When flying smoothly, if the wind suddenly drops low, the kite starts pecking. And if the wind dies out, the kite backflips once or twice with real ease...
It is as if the kite were unbalanced, but I have tried with 15g, 10g and 5g tail weight and it always does that...

I will modify the bridle to the alternate setting when I have some time. Once I try it I will report back.

However, I am still feeling quite confused and blue about my L'Quartz
 Sad





I am truly confused also with what could be wrong.  Let me also advise I have my entire frame in P2X, with Nitro Standard LS and a 6mm US.  So my kite is a bit lighter than a complete pultruded frame with 5PT LS.  I don't exhibit what you describe as far as flight behavior in any wind.  The Quartz for me Flares quite easily and into Fades just as easy.  Lateral Rolls from Fades also with no issues so my setup feels quite balanced.  I can fly downwards and setup into an Uneven Flare for Axle tricks like the 540 with some input adjustments. I unfortunately still lack the sail quality, although quite honestly hasn't affected me all that much for now.  My inputs just need to be a bit more defined and premeditated.

The Inhaul adjustments should impact your turn radius for the most part.  Although aggressive changes with the Inhaul does affect the toe point position within the sail and overall distance from the sail.  This of course affects flight characteristics.  Definitely try the Revision Bridle and please let us know if there are any notable changes.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:38 AM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
kitebug
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« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2013, 09:50 PM »

Sorry to hear that you cannot get your LEQuartz to fly well, something must have been missed in your build

There are few of us that have built this and it is a great kite! I personally have pretty much flow through mine, i need to build a new one, my first one is so beat up now. it is my go to fun kite.

hope you can resolve your issues.

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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2013, 01:32 AM »

Sorry to hear that you cannot get your LEQuartz to fly well, something must have been missed in your build

There are few of us that have built this and it is a great kite! I personally have pretty much flow through mine, i need to build a new one, my first one is so beat up now. it is my go to fun kite.

hope you can resolve your issues.

Thanks kitebug.

Three questions please:
1. Which bridle are you using?
2. What tail weight are you using?
3. What do you envision could have gone wrong in the building process?

Perhaps you could check some of the steps I have published here:
https://plus.google.com/photos/107184604178095062123/albums/5827053007099493201
And here are some pictures of the finished kite and a short video of the maiden flight:
https://plus.google.com/photos/107184604178095062123/albums/5827058912730569185

It would be a great favour if you could please review some of my construction steps.

THANKS!


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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2013, 04:59 AM »

Ara, I don't know if this will  help, but looking at your photograph of your bridle, if the line you have marked as an 'activator' line is actually a keeper line ( to stop the bridle catching around the tail), it does look a bit short to me.  it may be the angle of the photo but if it is short it might well be restricting the movement of the bridle - a keeper is usually quite loose - it only needs to be just short enough to stop the tail catching.  If it were me I'd untie one end of it and give your kite a fly.   It may help, it may not but if it doesn't it's a quick job to reattach it.

Thanks Steve, but that picture is from Tom's build process web site. So the tags with the names for the different parts were provided by Tom.
I just reused it to make sure I was changing the sizes correctly according to the bridle set-up that Lou was providing from Hugo's definition.

However, my bridle should currently be  very similar to that one...
You can check these two pictures for my real bridle:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MExRsNnJBsU/UN3fkt92g5I/AAAAAAAABfQ/7VSUyfAq9Io/w1127-h845-no/20121228_131059.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gyf2vssl0Fw/UN3fhMRFH4I/AAAAAAAABfA/0VR6sVP-9Bs/w1127-h845-no/20121228_124706.jpg
I have to check, but I would say my keeper line is not that tight...

In any case, I was planning on building Hugo's bridle this weekend if I have time... (I have to fly my newly acquired Illusion too, so little time... argh)

« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 05:01 AM by Ara Ararauna » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2013, 09:20 AM »

Everything looks very similar if not exactly to mine.  Of course images online cannot compensate for hands on review and flight time.  My understanding is P200/P2X tubes are pretty much the same as Structil in weight and very close to P200 in flex.  So our LE and Spine flex would feel very similar.  The stock bridle should be fine.  I am using Nitro STD Lower Spreaders which I am sure is much stiffer than the 5PT or Structil LSs people have used.  This might be where there is some difference in feel of its flight characteristics.  With that in mind, what exactly is your gut feeling on what is wrong.  Balance?  Precision? Responsiveness?  I just added Roll Bars to my Test Quartz to see how it would fly with the added weight and change in balance.  The Quartz seems to take on the burden with ease and isn't affected much at all.  She isn't so flippy/pitchy also now which I somewhat like.  Yoyos seem to flow smoother also although a tad bit slower.  I can't seem to put a finger on what the major issue might be and if you look at my images below the un-coated sail material has a good amount of stretch distortion at this point but yet still flies well enough.  Are you sure it may not just be expectations of this kite are set too high.  I having built this kite with no expectations of good performance was happily surprised.  Could it be just that? Still please let us know about the updated bridle.  I was thinking of trying that bridle along with a 3-point variant. 







Here's another humorous video to keep your spirits up.  This is a parody video to Krijn's Invictus Video.  Please don't laugh too hard.  I'm still only 2 months into freestyle flying and my kids are getting better faster than I am!

Muse Kite Tribute Video

« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 06:41 PM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
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