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Author Topic: The general terms: POP & PULL  (Read 2251 times)
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 08:12 AM »

I used to be a cross-chest thumper and have knocked my glasses off and punched my nose before.

Yup, I've snagged my headphones and yanked them out of my ears more than once too.  Huh  Cheesy

Restating something in different words is very often helpful.

This is all normal developmental stuff, but understanding the benefits of form are helpful, even when it's the last thing on your mind when just trying to figure out how to make the kite do something.

It's been a decade since I spent much time learning tricks (more of an old skool flyer), but paying attention to good form always helps when I'm learning (usually re-learning) some move,
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 08:41 AM »

POP is when I'm doing most tricks especially in crazy copters and Yofade
PULL is trying to launch Cosmic TC or TNT zero to fade from flair position off the ground.  Grin
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 04:26 PM by jecko » Logged
Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 11:34 AM »

OK, so I see this is one more of my nerd proposals related to getting more info on the tricks of the tricks (if you get my meaning).

However, I do not agree with Allen's comment on:
"The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body."
I know you have much more experience than I do, but think about the following.
Imagine you have the kite flying right to left at a relatively high trajectory and it is passing right in front of you at the center of the window.
If you pull the right line towards you (top wing), I state that you are pulling both the uphaul and the outhaul simultaneously (actually a bit more the outhaul).
Whereas if you pull the right line by moving your arm from left to right (i.e. in the opposite direction that the kite is flying in), I state that you will be only pulling the uphaul.
And I would state that this is the case even when apparently you are "too far a way" from the kite to have any effect.

I have checked this by taking any of my kites in my hands and simulating in slow'mo the two pulls.
With only a very slight change in the angle of the pull, the effect on the two legs of the bridle changes significantly.
Also I have tried this in flight and the kite does different things if you pull one way or the other...

This is what I was trying to make people conscious about.

Now, I accept that there are so many subtleties in a flying kite that this is difficult to generalize.

So, I close the topic here (one more of my failed crazy scientist proposals  Roll Eyes  ) and I will go back to my lonely flying field and figure out tricks on my onw (sounds dramatic, doesn't it?  Wink  Cheesy )
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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 05:55 PM »

Don't be disheartened, Ara.

Play around with your kites and see what works best for you and your kite.
Don't think too much, free your mind and enjoy your flying.
If you trying too hard chances are you'll leave the field early and if you try to digest too much you'll burnout.

Happy Flying. Wink
Ian.
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John Welden
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 01:28 PM »

OK, so I see this is one more of my nerd proposals related to getting more info on the tricks of the tricks (if you get my meaning).

However, I do not agree with Allen's comment on:
"The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body."
I know you have much more experience than I do, but think about the following.
Imagine you have the kite flying right to left at a relatively high trajectory and it is passing right in front of you at the center of the window.
If you pull the right line towards you (top wing), I state that you are pulling both the uphaul and the outhaul simultaneously (actually a bit more the outhaul).
Whereas if you pull the right line by moving your arm from left to right (i.e. in the opposite direction that the kite is flying in), I state that you will be only pulling the uphaul.
And I would state that this is the case even when apparently you are "too far a way" from the kite to have any effect.

I have checked this by taking any of my kites in my hands and simulating in slow'mo the two pulls.
With only a very slight change in the angle of the pull, the effect on the two legs of the bridle changes significantly.
Also I have tried this in flight and the kite does different things if you pull one way or the other...

This is what I was trying to make people conscious about.

Now, I accept that there are so many subtleties in a flying kite that this is difficult to generalize.

So, I close the topic here (one more of my failed crazy scientist proposals  Roll Eyes  ) and I will go back to my lonely flying field and figure out tricks on my onw (sounds dramatic, doesn't it?  Wink  Cheesy )


If you were flying on a 75 foot line set and you pulled one line to the side 3 feet, it would create about a 2 degree angle.  Not enough to do anything useful.

If your lines are twisted, any angle you create is canceled out.
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 02:45 PM »

Ok, so i think i have lesrned something very useful from this.  i have been pulling sideways and feel that i need too, BUT.... all your crazy videos doing much more complicated tricks than i do only show forward/backward!  Back to the drawing board.  i am sure a couple weeks of relearning inputs will really pay off!

Ara... I think in 3yrs we'll be looking back and telling the next gen of newbs "forward and back... Thats it! And work on your timing!" Grin
Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
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Lou
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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 04:40 PM »

Don't be disheartened, Ara.

Play around with your kites and see what works best for you and your kite.
Don't think too much, free your mind and enjoy your flying.
If you trying too hard chances are you'll leave the field early and if you try to digest too much you'll burnout.

Happy Flying. Wink
Ian.


These are incredibly powerful statements.  The days I load my brain with hours of tutorial videos and then try to go apply them on the field it leads to some improvement but also many times ALOT of frustration.  Just this afternoon I decided to take the family to the park I fly at and just relax.  I flew some SLKs with my daughter and occasionally flew the duallies with my sons.  Believe it or not I did far better having a relaxed and pleasant mindset and got closer to my Jacobs Ladders.  Amazing how much more I progressed and enjoyed doing it than previous days. 

I clearly understand your intentions to try and develop a standard for what is to some degree loose jargon.  I suggest that you just try and apply methods based on your interpretation initially and just simply ask specific questions on a particular move/trick when all else fails.  Everyone here and many other forums are always helpful and informative.  I know I'll be starting to ask a lot more questions as soon as I start to get deeper into trick combos!  Cheesy

Here's my example of "POPping" a lateral roll as a video tutorial instructs which was supposed to then put the kite into a backflip.  Due to too much input the kite rolls up past the backflip to about 270 degrees pointing downwards and then proceeds to unroll almost immediately and the start of the JL is lost... Maybe if I had been told to PULL or even POP+1.5 rather than my POP+7 I could have continued the trick.   Wink  Seriously, practice practice practice and the input sensitivity seems to self correct.

JoAnns Fabric Quartz Action!

Pull It Dont Pop It
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 06:05 PM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 06:13 PM »

Ok, first attempt at loosing the monkey arms went very well tonight!  i brought the family out and my wife flew the life out of her snapshot. When i tried it she snuck over and grabbed my zephyr... Shes getting much better too.
  i was able to do lazy susans without crossing my arms or trying to fly with one arm.  axles were ok, but needed more slack.  overall i have a short term goal that should lead to some long term results!
  i think i honestly bought my future improvements at the festival last weekend.... Snapshot for the wife to get family air time Grin

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
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drmndrew82
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 01:56 PM »


I want to thank Ara for bringing this topic up. I think/hope it will help a lot of flyers to understand why they can't do the tricks after watching the videos and reading the posts.

I spent hours and hours and hours watching videos, reading posts, and then trying to replicate them on the field. It was not very effective at learning the tricks quickly, but I did learn a lot from my failures.

With the half axel specifically, It took me about 4-5 months. The great comments in this post pretty much cover what I learned when I finally mastered this trick. Pops and pulls and inputs in general are subjective and really depend on conditions/kite/style as stated. In fact when I do a half axel in light wind I consider it a sweeping pull, but in high winds it takes an aggressive pop.

With the slot machine... In lighter winds my first input is a smaller pop while the second input is a larger sweeping pull. In higher winds the first input in my mind is a stronger pop while the second input is a lighter sweeping pull(by comparison to the first input).

Of course that is just the way I understand it. Everyone is different. I was very frustrated for some time, but then finally realized. Hey... I'm doing this for fun. Every hour on the field will get you better whether you learn a trick or not. For all you new flyers... My advice is to have fun experimenting and learning. The tricks will come with time.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 02:44 PM »

Great comments and kind words from all of you.
Thanks!
I understand I have to fly with my "heart" (or "guts"(!)) rather than my brain... but I am not made that way and tend to be very systematic and square headed.
 ___
|:-I|
 ---

This doesn't men I don't have fun on the flying field.  Smiley

But I understand what you are saying.
Also I think these neurotic attacks of mine expressed in the forum help me a lot to get your feedback. And I hope they can help others too...   Roll Eyes
I would not like to feel I'm being a pest or stubborn as a donkey...  Embarrassed

So all of you that have answered these questions, rest assured that this is helping me a lot.
THANKS!  Smiley


P.S. Great video Lou!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 02:45 PM by Ara Ararauna » Logged

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Lou
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 03:27 PM »

Np Ara,  just my idiotic attempts to add humor where stress might wander.  Took me a moment to find a good pop sound to add to that video.  All in good fun!  Grin

PM sent with a question for you also. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:14 PM by Lou (Spectra Sports) » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 04:10 PM »

<<<<son of an engineer...  It's how we are wired!

I am starting to fly with more emotion than thought.. and i think music helps alot!  so have these posts

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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2013, 10:57 AM »

  POP , PULL , NICK NACK , PADDIE WHACK give the dog a bone. I'm defenetly a newbie I started out reading this and was confused a little bit. kinda the same way you were when you started reading what I just typed. But I think I'm starting to understand it a little better on how to control the kite, thanks.
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The wind is blowing, hope I learn something today. If not it was still fun
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