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Author Topic: The general terms: POP & PULL  (Read 2538 times)
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Ara Ararauna
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« on: May 25, 2013, 11:21 AM »

Lately I have been able to start doing some new tricks such as the flair to fade, the Slot Machine, sort of a backspin...

This has been after trying all sorts of pulls and pops and getting some results sometimes, but a lot of frustration most times.

I have noticed that more expert pilots usually use these terms (pop & pull) in a very loose way when trying to explain a trick to a newbie like me.
Therefore, these become terms that sound so general and unspecific that one doesn't really know how to do them when trying the tricks out on the field.
So I think we should always provide an adjective or short extra detail to make them more specific.

For example, when I want to do a flair to fade, if I flair the kite and then pop towards me or pull towards me I get no (or very bad) results. Plus I have to do a huge effort.
On the other hand if I flair the kite and then I pull down by moving my arms quickly down and towards the sides of my body, I then get much better results. And need less effort.

Another example, if I want to do a Slot, I first give a sort pop (as if starting a half axel) and then I give a sideways pop in the opposite direction that the kite is flying.
I think these extra characteristics of the pops and pulls are very important and would be very useful for us newbies.

So I wanted to know how you more expert flyers see this and whether you would be willing to do the exercise of thinking about the specific ways in which you pop or pull and use this extra information when helping us beginners.
Thanks!
 Smiley
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vertigo2u
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 12:42 PM »

Excellent question Ara...

I am always confused by the terms.. But I also use the terms loosely.  There are two ways of flying also.  i.e. when doing simple box turns. Some guys pull on one line others sort of push the other line thus I think we get terms like push turns or pull turns.  Jon T taught me Pull turns that is... When I am flying from the left to the right. and I make my first turn up.. I pull my right hand towards myself.  By giving a tiny tiny tiny bit of slack and a quick tug of my left hand I am able to make the turn snap and a air popping sound happens with the sail.  These are pull turns.

So for us beginners as what I have been taught. Terms like Pop and Pull  are sometimes used to describe something many beginners haven't learned yet.  Pop is referred to getting air out of the sail.   But that is done only by snapping the right, left and right lines towards oneself quickly causing the kite to dump air and make a  Pop sound.

Some tricks require one to Pop the sail before or doing the trick.  i.e. doing a stall or a snap stall one has the Pop the sail to make the kite stop.  Pop is referring to the process of tugging the lines towards oneself with a right then left and right again quick motion.

Now after writing all this one needs to appreciate the work a guy like Norm does with his trick challenges.  Norms shows how to do the tricks he knows from a beginners  perspective.  I haven't filmed four AVFFF's but I learned from a everyday guy rather from a trick artist which I have around me.

There are No video's teaching a snap stall for beginners and explaining what is involved in the technique and explain the terms.  From a beginner who  figured the trick out.  It would be nice if More everyday guys posted to help others.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 01:50 PM »

Right Vertigo, but whether you pop/pull or others push, my point is that these pops/pulls and pushes go unqualified.

What I am proposing is to say HOW to pop/pull or push.
Because each trick or part of a trick needs a different way of popping/pulling or pushing.
It is this difference which I think would be extremely valuable to describe always.
Don't you agree?
Cheers!
 Smiley
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John Welden
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 03:34 PM »

I'd say it all depends on the trick, wind conditions and kite.  (And flying style)

A lot of times you can't really pop from a flair to a fade with an SUL. You have to gently guide it.

In higher winds with normal kites, you can be aggressive and pop most tricks if you want to.

Bottom line, you have to practice and figure out what works for your kite and the wind conditions. If you keep at it you'll just automatically know what to do after a while.
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adx1592
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 03:39 PM »

I'd say it all depends on the trick, wind conditions and kite.  (And flying style)

A lot of times you can't really pop from a flair to a fade with an SUL. You have to gently guide it.

In higher winds with normal kites, you can be aggressive and pop most tricks if you want to.

Bottom line, you have to practice and figure out what works for your kite and the wind conditions. If you keep at it you'll just automatically know what to do after a while.

+1. When people talk about dead spots in flic-flacs, odds are that concept needs to be implemented.

JW's right tho, the terms are basically just guidelines, it all depends on the person or the kite. Or both.
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-Devin Cobleigh-Morrison
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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2013, 04:44 PM »

Speed and intensity are what seperate a "pop" from a sweeping "pull". It can very wind speed dependant and levels of each needed from kite to kite can also vary. Videos are good but it can be tough to judge wind speed on them. Plus you want to see what the kite is doing along with the flyer.
Get all of those measurements and your golden.Grin
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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 07:10 PM »

I think the concept here is What does POP or Pull mean.  Not when to apply it.  And what does it mean when applying it.  The terms are loose.  What one persons means by pop or another means by pull is different...
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 07:45 PM »

If you can hear the sail during a tug, it's a Pop.

I refer to Pop inputs as IMPACT.

Force without distance, grasshopper.  Smiley

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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 08:09 PM »

I think it's all pop.  The only thing I think of as a pull is the backspin input and you can just pop there as well.

The key thing to remember is to  almost always release tension on the other, non input hand.  Exceptions are yoyo, flick flack, not much else I can think recall at the moment.
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 11:34 PM »

Hmmm... thanks for the comments but I think I'm not getting trough with my concept.

I realize some kites and some wind conditions might need different strengths or speeds. This might indeed differentiate a POP from PULL.

What I'm trying to get through is the idea of differentiating one POP from another POP, or one PULL from another PULL.

In other words, given a fixed kite, a fixed wind condition, a fixed trick and even a fixed part of a trick, I think that saying "pop the right line and then give slack" is too vague.
This is why I was giving the example of the Slot.
You can say: "When flying the kite right to left, pop your top wing (right hand) as if starting a half axel while giving slack to bottom wing (left hand). Then immediately pull the top wing (right hand) to start rotation and quickly give slack to both lines. Finally gently pull away both lines to exit trick after full rotation."

Here the "pop" is qualified by describing it is similar to the half axel.
The second "pull" is qualified by saying "pull away".
However, the first "pull" is not qualified and I think it is one of the crucial points of the trick.

It has taken me time to discover that this "pull" should not be towards my body, but rather sideways, away from my body.
So I think it would be much more useful that this part of the description would read:
"... Then immediately pull the top wing with your right hand with a lateral movement from left (hand close to your body) to right (hand away from body) to start rotation,..."

So I guess the qualification I am talking about refers to direction and body motion needed (which I think are a constant regardless of wind conditions) rather than strength or abruptness (which do change depending on wind conditions).

Maybe what I'm trying to put through is one more of my nerdie, crazy scientist, sort of disquisitions...  Tongue  ...but I really think that this helped me understand how to do some tricks and thought it could help others too.
 Smiley
Cheers!

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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 03:20 AM »

Good question ARA,
POP is the sound of the explosive cartridges on the upper APA SPREADERS ejection SYSTEM.
N
PULL is what it does to the EJECTION HANDLE when it sees me on the end of the strings!
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Ara Ararauna
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 04:26 AM »

Good question ARA,
POP is the sound of the explosive cartridges on the upper APA SPREADERS ejection SYSTEM.
N
PULL is what it does to the EJECTION HANDLE when it sees me on the end of the strings!
Wow, you really are alien!    Wink
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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 05:44 AM »

Ara, for me, I can think about & visualize the tricks for hours at home, but once I step onto the field and pick up the lines, my mind goes blank. Most of my flying comes from feel, not thinking about whether I'm popping or pulling.
I know you're in the same boat as me with no one to fly with or act as an instructor. It's just a time thing. I couldn't describe any better than a pop or pull, but like JW said, the definitions of those words is highly depenant on the conditions & kite.
Good luck !
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Allen Carter
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 07:51 AM »


It has taken me time to discover that this "pull" should not be towards my body, but rather sideways, away from my body.
So I think it would be much more useful that this part of the description would read:
"... Then immediately pull the top wing with your right hand with a lateral movement from left (hand close to your body) to right (hand away from body) to start rotation,..."



The kite doesn't know that you are moving your hand away from your body. It only cares about the amount and force (and speed and duration, and acceleration) of the line moving away from it. Unless you were on very short lines (like 10') the sideways or lateral motion of the hands has no affect. All it does is reduce your range of motion.

Range of motion is very important. The main reason folks tend to do slack line tricks with their hands at their sides is the much greater available range of motion. With hands in front of your body and close together you can generally fly with more control, but go to pop or pull or whatever to initiate a slack line trick and you could hit yourself in the chest. In the old days we called these cross body chest thumps while trying to learn axels "roman salutes"   Smiley

With your hands able to move way behind you and extend all the way in front, you can move a lot more line. When you take into account the range from one hand forward and the other hand back, you've really got a lot to work with.

The further your hands get from your sides (further apart) the harder it is to find a center, or neutral position. It ends up being a lot of wasted motion (and time) in a game where quick, intentional, movement of your hands is key.

As for "pop" or "pull", I'd consider what the kite needs to initiate and complete a move rather than what your movements should be. Type of kite? Is the kite stalled or flying? Center or edge of window? Light or strong wind? Is momentum needed to carry the kite through the move, or are you just moving the kite into a new position or transition? Thinking about what kind of input the kite needs is the way to go. I used to use a small kite in my hands to better understand what parts of the kite are affected by what inputs. Visualizing the wind pressure as the kite moves through a trick.

But, all the brain time is not nearly as effective as just flying. Just do it. Over and over and over. Your hands will figure out what works. You just need to know what you are asking the kite to do.
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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 08:03 AM »

Descriptions of pull/pop are difficult to describe and they mean different things to different people. Inputs also vary as one moves through the learning curve for a trick. Pulling away from your body rather than towards it dampens the strength of the pull of the wing towards you. As you gain experience with a new trick, inputs become more efficient and lighter. The timing is fine tuned. No sideways pull/pop is required, just use a lighter straight pull/pop than used with the sideways motion and applied at the right time.

Pulling sideways is similar to leaning sideways to guide a ball after it's already in the air - body english. As always, it comes down to personal preferences and flying styles (more or less flail). Most of us flail initially and we become much smoother as the trick and kite become a part of us - not having to think about it.

(While I was typing, the post ahead of me said the same thing. I'll post this anyway in case a different way of saying it makes sense to someone. I used to be a cross-chest thumper and have knocked my glasses off and punched my nose before.)
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