GWTW Forum
October 20, 2014, 09:17 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Forum Info Login Register Chat  
Welcome to the GWTW Forum.
Guests (non-registered users) can view the forum but are unable to post.  If you don't have anything to say then why would you bother to register?
One of the most popular sections of the GWTW Forum has long been the Swap Meet.  A great place to sell old, seldom flown kites or to get great deals on used (gently flown) kites.  Only registered users can see the Swap Meet section, let alone wheel and deal.  1000's (literally) of kites have changed hands thanks to the Swap Meet.
There are several more benefits to being a registered user, but you'll have to join our little community to find out all the "secrets".
Questions or concerns? Contact Steve ... just drop an email to: forum.gwtwkites@gmail.com

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: When Will Sewing Kites Become Obsolete?  (Read 2369 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
chilese
Global Moderator
Trade Count: (+5)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3073


Location: Las Vegas, NV

WWW
« on: June 03, 2013, 09:25 AM »

I have a prototype C21 Extreme UL. Won it at the first Kite Party auction.

It is always in my "A bag".

I was told the kite was an experiment. All interior panels are NOT sewn.
The edges are sewn. Never had a problem with the panels opening up.

Have materials gotten to the point where we could consider sewing optional?

Granted, the kite is a UL and on the slightly smaller side (7 feet roughly).

Here it is in 2003:


Here it is in 2012:
Logged

John Chilese: Las Vegas, NV
http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej
Lou
Trade Count: (+2)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 258


Location: Orlando, FL

« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 09:47 AM »

With the innovations in textile coating and impact resilient adhesives I can't see why we shouldn't evolve into retiring the sewing machine.  Sails built using adhesives to attach sail panels provide a greater contact surface area between panels directly reducing the load on the stitches.  With an appropriate adhesive where the adhesion strength is greater than the fabric itself, one would assume the stitches may not even provide any function at all.  It will be interesting to see what the future holds...  Smiley
Logged
Ara Ararauna
Trade Count: (0)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 867


Location: Sant Cugat (Barcelona)

« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 09:58 AM »

It is an interesting point. With lights and shades.

Lights:
1. It would probably lower costs.
2. It could also make kites even lighter.
3. It would save time (and having to buy or have access to a sewing machine) for those of us that like building our kites.
4. It would provide very clean seams, especially across panels that have the same color. So new visual effects could be achieved.

Shades:
1. I like the aesthetic value of sewn seams.
2. What about maintenance and repair? Could we substitute a glued or soldered panel?

Of course, given both choices each person could choose the one he or she prefers.
Because sewing would not completely disappear (at least not all of a sudden), as a technology and technique I mean.
Better to have two options than one, so having the glueing/soldering option would, in fact, only be good.   Smiley

Logged

In my bag...
Duals: NoName (NoBrand), Nexus (Prism), Soul (Flying Wings), Talon UL (JoE), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura SUL custom (Skyburner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
alien
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321

Location: Scottshead Australia

« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 10:40 AM »

If sewing does eventually disappear for a cosmetic trend, performance gain or manufacturing technique advancement,like most sports there is always a "thread"(excuse that)or call to the past that keeps certain aspects of the sporting equipment that is used to remain traditional and like most sports even if they did vanish completely ,some one will make a shiny new kite with stitches and suddenly we will all want it,double the price of course and possibly double stitched to make up for those dark years without them?
The International Kite Makers Union along with The Association of Kite Flyers Professional (EU) has band the use of stitch free kites anyway!   Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 03:15 AM by alien » Logged
thief
Board Moderator
Trade Count: (+25)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3645


Location: North Shore of Massa-WHO-setts

WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 11:00 AM »

There is a maker here in Massachusetts that goes by the moniker of "NoSew" everything he makes is taped and never sewn......and his stuff flies great and last a long time........
Logged

Kites kayaks & corgis again!!!
Turkey9186
Trade Count: (+6)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 161

Location: USA, Fairfield/Cordelia CA

« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 11:46 AM »

For over ten years now, sails for high performance sail boats have been molded.  I am surprised someone has not tried it for a kite sail.
What's next, download a file and print out your next gen super-flier on your home 3d printer?
Logged
Will Sturdy
Trade Count: (+3)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 205


Location: The Boondocks, Maine

WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 04:31 PM »

I would be very surprised if we ever get away from kites that are at least partially sewn. For the most part body seams really don't need to be stitched if they are adhered properly.

Even the most high performance boat sails are still stitched around edge tapes and corner reinforcements. Although molded sails are still an evolving process that does not produce sails that last very long yet, most sail manufacturers are now using laminates that are cross cut and glued together - no stitching in the body seams. This only works with some spinnakers and laminates. A lot of laminates are still stronger if the seams are stitched as well. And these are laminates, not cloths! Cloth loses less strength in stitching and does not form an adhesive bond as well as laminates. The bonding of glues and tapes with Dacron and webbing is still far lower than the mechanical connection of a proper seam.

I have heard some folks claim that taped seams are stronger than a sewn seam - this is true in certain situations. For the most part, kites are built at far too small a scale for the weave of the fabrics we use, so we end up with too high a stitch density. Look at most sails - the three step zz used in them is generally at least 9mm wide and often 12mm, vs ~5mm used on most kites. The looser stitch density with tape is far stronger than a seam that is only taped. For the most part kites are so overbuilt in the body panels that it makes absolutely no difference though Wink

The only real major stress points in kite sails that are anywhere need material limits are the interfaces between dissimilar materials and concentrated loads such as the nose, CT, and tail.Since the materials strong enough to withstand these loads do not bond well with adhesives, it's hard to beat stitching for them.

All that to say that it is totally reasonable to not sew body seams (although from a manufacturing standpoint it is often simpler to do so) but there will probably always be a need for stitching somewhere in most kites. Now if the general construction geometry of sport kites were to radically change, who knows...
Logged
sugarbaker
Trade Count: (+7)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 749


Location: Seattle, WA

« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 06:46 PM »

Frankly, I like the look of stitched seams.  And who are we kidding, half the fun of kiting is the visual bliss.  In many of my kites I use a colored stitch that can't be seen when the kite is aloft... but up close, it adds to the artisan aspect of the build.
Logged
tpatter
Trade Count: (+24)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1990

Location: Seattle, WA

WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 07:25 PM »

I like flying a functional work of art that lasts. 

I don't want my kites to go the way of most modern items that are inexpensive, but don't last very long.   It's not had to imagine a design where a broken spar means the whole kite would be tossed for a new one. 

Virtually nothing is designed to be repaired anymore.
Logged

6 kite tom
Ara Ararauna
Trade Count: (0)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 867


Location: Sant Cugat (Barcelona)

« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 12:42 AM »

... and what would be the outcome of Lam without sewing?!?!

On second thought it would probably not be that much of a loss  Wink

Cheers!

P.S. All Lam lovers are at this point allowed to flame me...   Cheesy
Logged

In my bag...
Duals: NoName (NoBrand), Nexus (Prism), Soul (Flying Wings), Talon UL (JoE), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura SUL custom (Skyburner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
alien
Trade Count: (0)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 321

Location: Scottshead Australia

« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 03:37 AM »

Frankly, I like the look of stitched seams.  And who are we kidding, half the fun of kiting is the visual bliss.  In many of my kites I use a colored stitch that can't be seen when the kite is aloft... but up close, it adds to the artisan aspect of the build.

Oh good one Matey,
Ive never taken much notice of the stitching until now,OOOHH_YUMMMY
Visual Bliss... mmmm...yes...yes it is and thanks to you ive now finally gotten over being so shallow and only loving my kites for their delicious Glossy Spreaders by focusing on its Artisan aspect of the build...STITCHES   
                                                             Huh                          
 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 03:41 AM by alien » Logged
ae
Trade Count: (+2)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 422


Location: Germany - Berlin

« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 04:49 AM »

For over ten years now, sails for high performance sail boats have been molded.  I am surprised someone has not tried it for a kite sail.
What's next, download a file and print out your next gen super-flier on your home 3d printer?



I'm experimenting with that:


The sail is made form 2 layers of 11g cuben fibre, the faint spider web like black lines in the sail are carbon rowings.
For now that was just an experiment in how long w sail of that makeup would last. It definitely needs a different technique then full area spray on glue Smiley
But in principle it works very well.
The problem is the cost associated with actually bonding the two layers together in a way that lasts.
Logged
inewham
Moderator
Trade Count: (+1)
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 380


Location: Nottingham, UK

WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 04:55 AM »

The looser stitch density with tape is far stronger than a seam that is only taped.

2 pieces of fabric properly taped (3M), with no stitching; the fabric fails before the tape. I destroyed a few test pieces trying to get them to shear, peel etc.

I always sewed over the tape on kites but only because I still didn't trust the tape  Roll Eyes

Quote
The only real major stress points in kite sails that are anywhere need material limits are the interfaces between dissimilar materials and concentrated loads such as the nose, CT, and tail.Since the materials strong enough to withstand these loads do not bond well with adhesives, it's hard to beat stitching for them.

That ^  I never had much success with tape on dacron, noseweb etc. they eventually peeled so I always preferred to just tack with a water soluble glue stick and sew, its a lot easier to work with around a nose than a grabby tape like 3M
Logged

madhabitz
Trade Count: (+4)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 781


Location: Pleasanton, CA

« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2013, 04:20 PM »

... and what would be the outcome of Lam without sewing?!?!

On second thought it would probably not be that much of a loss  Wink
wow
Logged

"I haven't failed. I've just found ten-thousand ways that won't work."   -Thomas Edison
Ara Ararauna
Trade Count: (0)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 867


Location: Sant Cugat (Barcelona)

« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 09:42 PM »

... and what would be the outcome of Lam without sewing?!?!

On second thought it would probably not be that much of a loss  Wink
wow
Controversy!  Wink

(I'm talking from an aesthetical point of view. Nothing to say from a buildung or flying quality)
Logged

In my bag...
Duals: NoName (NoBrand), Nexus (Prism), Soul (Flying Wings), Talon UL (JoE), LeQuartz (own build), Illusion Classic (Prism), Aura SUL custom (Skyburner), Sixth Sense STD (Krijn)
Singles: Conyne STD (my design)
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


items purchased through the links below help support the forum

Cal Custom

Our forum is made possible by the good folks whose ads appear below and by the members of our community (PayPal donation button at bottom)
In case you missed it each ad is linked to the sponsors web site.  So please, take a moment and visit our sponsors sites as this forum wouldn't be possible with out them.
Interested in running an ad for your business or kiting event?  Contact Steve at advertise.gwtwkites@gmail.com for a quote.

kmacFab
kmacFab

Kite Classifieds Ad
Kite Classifieds

A Wind Of Change
A Wind Of Change

Kitebookie
Kitebookie.com

Untitled Document

Untitled Document
Untitled Document

A Wind Of Change
skyshark

Untitled Document
Untitled Document


Untitled Document
DOLLAR SHAVE CLUB

Support the GWTW Forum

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.2.1 © 2008-2009
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!