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Author Topic: Scaled down 6th Sense or Invictus? Anyone made one?  (Read 4012 times)
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photogbill
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2013, 10:26 AM »

Thanks for the compliments John and Krijn! ...also thanks for the advise on doing a double 3-step zigzag stitch on the trailing edge. That would make things a lot easier in the build. I assume you are sewing one along the edge of the TE strip and another down the middle of the strip. I don't have any spinnaker (not even sure what that is exactly) but I use a 2" strip of 1.5 oz rip-stop, folded in half twice, giving me a 1/2" TE ... for my trailing edges.

Also will there be any significant increase in flight noise using the double zigzag stitch method over putting a leach line in. I still get some noise when flying my prior builds that all have had a leech line in them.

Thanks
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sugarbaker
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2013, 02:26 PM »

Yes, I agree, the builds look nice. I don't always jive with your color choices, but I like the sails you're building for yourself.  I assume the one for a friend is the colors he/she likes.

In terms of panel size, I wonder if you could print the plan at 85%, but print the panels at 86 or 87%... then line up the panels with the outside of the 85% plan, which would in turn make a larger overlap at each section.  Just a thought.  I've not made an 85% yet; too many projects on my table. 
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photogbill
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 03:54 PM »

Yes, I agree, the builds look nice. I don't always jive with your color choices, but I like the sails you're building for yourself.  I assume the one for a friend is the colors he/she likes.

In terms of panel size, I wonder if you could print the plan at 85%, but print the panels at 86 or 87%... then line up the panels with the outside of the 85% plan, which would in turn make a larger overlap at each section.  Just a thought.  I've not made an 85% yet; too many projects on my table. 


Thanks 'sugarbaker'! Yeah ....my friend is the one with the bold color choices. Actually the colors on this kite are exactly the same as the ones on his 'Indian' NFX Extend ...and I made fun of him about those colors too until I went flying with him and saw it in a bright blue sky! I had to admit it looked pretty sharp!



And appreciate the suggestion but it cost approx $17 to have both (left & right) full size patterns printed ....so printing 2 different size percentage patterns wouldn't be worth it to me. I use the patterns with carbon paper underneath to trace the individual panels to make construction paper templates for my builds. I'm not sure it's the best method or not but the construction paper templates are more durable and can be used over and over to make quite a lot of kites if I chose too in the future. It would be more practical to just either draw new overlap lines on the pattern or just cheat the cut lines a little when I'm cutting my rip-stop so as to make the seam overlap slightly larger to avoid any issues with the seam tape.
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photogbill
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 07:07 PM »

Well, they all look good flat on a rug, so you know

they are going to look great finished.

Very nice.  Smiley


Two are finished except for a bridle, yo-yo stops, a few tweaks on the rods!

First is my UL version with lots of mylar!

I used a combination of Skyshark P100/P1X for LE, a P2X spine, and 3PT lower spreaders! 





Here's the one standard I made for a friend.







I still have to frame out the other standard I made for myself! Will post a picture of it tomorrow.
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Kareloh
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2013, 02:07 AM »

Looking quite sharp! I like 'm!

Don't know if this is allready been discussed, but i wonder why you consistently use the 45 degree angle on the inner panels (spine). As a rule i always align the ripstop pattern with the spine for those panels since icarex only stretches in diagonal direction.
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photogbill
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2013, 08:41 AM »

Looking quite sharp! I like 'm!

Don't know if this is allready been discussed, but i wonder why you consistently use the 45 degree angle on the inner panels (spine). As a rule i always align the ripstop pattern with the spine for those panels since icarex only stretches in diagonal direction.

First, Thanks for the compliment!

As to the 45 degree diagonal on Icarex center panels, I wasn't aware there was a serious issue with stretching, due to that. I seem to recall observing center panels being that way on other 'professional' kite builds. It's an interesting observation that I don't recall anyone discussing before. I'd be interested in others reflecting on the subject. It was my understanding that it was important to slightly angle adjoining panels to each other so I try to make sure no two panels have their grids aligned to each other. I make sure all panel grids slightly offset to each other, f that makes sense.

In retrospect, since the tension on the sail is created by the standoffs "pulling" on the sail, away from the spine, would not the 45 degree angle be a correct alignment if stretching was a concern ...and since the standoffs are at an approx. 45 degree angle to the spine & the channeling of wind will also be directed in that direction? I'm not stating that I know this to be correct. I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of the sail in relationship to where the forces would interact with kite dynamics and flight.

It is an interesting subject. I'll have to look at some of my previous boutique (bought) kites to see if there is a set pattern for their center panels!
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Lou
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 09:00 AM »

Outside of intentionally creating stretch to allow a sail increase "billow" in certain areas I was under the understanding that the strongest direction of the bias should always align with the spine and leading trailing edges.  I noticed a big difference in sail tension when I went from the diagonal spine alignment to the strongest bias direction along the spine.  I am of the newest forum members to kite building but I can't deny the results in this particular case.

Kites still nonetheless look very nice.  The Indian colors are very northeastern to me.  I love it!
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photogbill
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« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2013, 11:07 AM »

Outside of intentionally creating stretch to allow a sail increase "billow" in certain areas I was under the understanding that the strongest direction of the bias should always align with the spine and leading trailing edges.  I noticed a big difference in sail tension when I went from the diagonal spine alignment to the strongest bias direction along the spine.  I am of the newest forum members to kite building but I can't deny the results in this particular case.

Kites still nonetheless look very nice.  The Indian colors are very northeastern to me.  I love it!

It may be your "understanding" but I fail to see what tensional forces ...other than the spine rod tensioning itself ...(which I always reinforce with a 1" strip of mylar zig-zag stitched down the center and both edges) ...are exerted in a direct up and down force? Not to mention if you do that, you will be sewing along parallel lines of grid and material layers when you connect both center panels down the middle ...creating a weak bond between the two creating a potential for material separation?

I'd hesitate using your personal empirical experience ...since ..as you have admitted, you have not been building kites all that long! How do you know that your panel layout 'alone' was the reason for you're observed differences in sail tension? I'm not saying that you are wrong, merely that I would be more interested in a better explanation from a more experience ...perhaps a boutique kite make themselve ...or an engineer that can explain the forces that apply to the sail on a constructed delta shaped stunt kite!  Wink
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photogbill
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« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2013, 12:24 PM »

Well ... the third kite in the trio is all framed out. I should have waited till the sun went down a little for a better angle or used a little fill flash but here goes:






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photogbill
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2013, 12:32 PM »

Outside of intentionally creating stretch to allow a sail increase "billow" in certain areas I was under the understanding that the strongest direction of the bias should always align with the spine and leading trailing edges. .....

After my last post I took my Sano sail out (getting ready to do some much needed repairs) and observed that Paul Shirey ...one of the most meticulous kite builders I've even know ...plus an engineer by trade ... arranged the center panels, leading edges, & trailing edges (except for the one closest to spine) exactly as you suggested!

I guess I'll need to adapt my kite-building techniques on my next projects!  Wink

And ...by the way, getting caught up in the panel layout discussion, I forgot to thank you for the compliments on the looks of the kites! Thanks!

Bill
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Krijn
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2013, 01:26 PM »

HUGO:
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inewham
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2013, 01:34 PM »

I was wondering if any of you all have built them scaled down and whether you liked the scaled down version as well as the originals ...and what if any flight characteristic changes you noticed!

Not those kites specifically but generally speaking as the kite gets smaller it helps to add a little extra depth or the kite can feel quite skittish. Reduce something to 75% and it starts to get a bit flat

2. In any case, once you have decided to scale down, why only 90%? Would seem such a small reduction...

Dating back to the 90s 75% and 90% have been historically popular scalings because they equated to 125cm / 150cm leading edges and 62.5 / 75cm spreaders. This meant that by the time you added the spare from the upper spreader to the tail you could have no waste from 3m lengths of pultrude

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Krijn
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 01:38 PM »

i like the red/black/mylar one a lot!
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photogbill
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 01:55 PM »

HUGO:



Hmmmmmmm. Thanks for posting. I guess I'll need to look at a few more of my kites to see how their center panels are angled to the spine! It seams there are different schools of thought!  Wink
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photogbill
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 02:01 PM »

i like the red/black/mylar one a lot!

Thanks Krijn! I do too! I can't wait to get it up in the sky to see what it looks like in flight!

Hopefully tomorrow if the winds aren't too strong for it! I still need to make the bridles but they are ready to go after that!

I'd like to try both of the ones I made for myself! Interested to see what ...if any difference there is between the two, since I double-sewed the trailing edge of the UL instead of using a leech line! The outer portion of the wing is pretty taught but the part from the standoffs to the keel are not on that kite!
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